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	<title>Comments on: The Throwdown</title>
	<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/</link>
	<description>America's favorite blog</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.11</generator>

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		<title>by: Dave von Ebers</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29364</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29364</guid>
					<description>Adam, I agree with everything you say, but I do think sexism plays a role.  Let me say, in the interest of full disclosure, that I've favored Obama from early in the race; but so too have my wife, my mother (who cast her first vote in the 1940's, mind you), all six of my sisters, and several of my nieces, including one who was heavily involved in Obama's Iowa campaign.  So no, favoring Obama over Clinton doesn't make one sexist.  Not in the least.

Still, I can't escape the notion that a good part of the press' antipathy toward Clinton is sexist.  It began well before the race winnowed to two candidates, and it included things like "Cleavage-gate" and the non-stop reporting on her appearance and whether she was sufficiently "likable" to get elected.  I mean, they all but called her a bitch.  During the early republican debates the candidates were asked whether Clinton was "fit to be commander in chief"; and yes, that question was based in part on the fact that she was then the presumptive front runner ... but you could feel the sexism in the sneering way the question was asked and the flippant responses the question evoked.

In the end, though, I have to support the candidate whose views are most like my own, and that's Obama, not Clinton.  More to the point, I can't let the sexist pricks in the media (and in the Republican party) dictate for whom I vote.  All that having been said, I think I can understand the frustration that some of Clinton's supporters feel ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, I agree with everything you say, but I do think sexism plays a role.  Let me say, in the interest of full disclosure, that I&#8217;ve favored Obama from early in the race; but so too have my wife, my mother (who cast her first vote in the 1940&#8217;s, mind you), all six of my sisters, and several of my nieces, including one who was heavily involved in Obama&#8217;s Iowa campaign.  So no, favoring Obama over Clinton doesn&#8217;t make one sexist.  Not in the least.</p>
<p>Still, I can&#8217;t escape the notion that a good part of the press&#8217; antipathy toward Clinton is sexist.  It began well before the race winnowed to two candidates, and it included things like &#8220;Cleavage-gate&#8221; and the non-stop reporting on her appearance and whether she was sufficiently &#8220;likable&#8221; to get elected.  I mean, they all but called her a bitch.  During the early republican debates the candidates were asked whether Clinton was &#8220;fit to be commander in chief&#8221;; and yes, that question was based in part on the fact that she was then the presumptive front runner &#8230; but you could feel the sexism in the sneering way the question was asked and the flippant responses the question evoked.</p>
<p>In the end, though, I have to support the candidate whose views are most like my own, and that&#8217;s Obama, not Clinton.  More to the point, I can&#8217;t let the sexist pricks in the media (and in the Republican party) dictate for whom I vote.  All that having been said, I think I can understand the frustration that some of Clinton&#8217;s supporters feel &#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: The AnnFan Club</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29362</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29362</guid>
					<description>Wow!! People are really getting excited about this election!

I'll say.

It's about time we acted like a participatory democracy.

This is good!

I've never seen such a rallying behind a candidate!

Or such spirited debate.

Far Out!!!

(Hmmm... Zippy, check the roster. Maybe John Denver &lt;em&gt;did&lt;/em&gt; survive that plane crash!)

(..... You know, I always did like "Annie's Song", but then he went and divorced her.)

(What a sap!!)

Groovy!

Okay, I think we need to establish a cut off age for the membership. Some of these fans are pathetic geezers!

I agree.

Me, too.

Well, if we had a dress code that required pocket protectors, Dwayne, you'd have Ann all to yourself!

A truly excellent idea, Dexter! Do we a quorum?

Schmuck!

Shlemiel!

Dweeb!

Pustule!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow!! People are really getting excited about this election!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll say.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s about time we acted like a participatory democracy.</p>
<p>This is good!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never seen such a rallying behind a candidate!</p>
<p>Or such spirited debate.</p>
<p>Far Out!!!</p>
<p>(Hmmm&#8230; Zippy, check the roster. Maybe John Denver <em>did</em> survive that plane crash!)</p>
<p>(&#8230;.. You know, I always did like &#8220;Annie&#8217;s Song&#8221;, but then he went and divorced her.)</p>
<p>(What a sap!!)</p>
<p>Groovy!</p>
<p>Okay, I think we need to establish a cut off age for the membership. Some of these fans are pathetic geezers!</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>Me, too.</p>
<p>Well, if we had a dress code that required pocket protectors, Dwayne, you&#8217;d have Ann all to yourself!</p>
<p>A truly excellent idea, Dexter! Do we a quorum?</p>
<p>Schmuck!</p>
<p>Shlemiel!</p>
<p>Dweeb!</p>
<p>Pustule!
</p>
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		<title>by: Adam Felber</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29361</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 10:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29361</guid>
					<description>Ann, I don't find those links too persuasive.  The first one takes itself apart, to my mind.  For instance,  Obama committed the sin of not being stupid enough, in 2004, to think that an immediate US withdrawal was a good idea.  In that, he was basically in lockstep with John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and more or less every responsible Democrat, regardless of whether they thought starting the war was a good idea.

They were all correct, I think.  Tragically, we were at the beginning of the long, horrifying insurgency, and we had responsibilities born of Bush's colossal  blunder.


As for the voting record rundown of the second link... Meh.  It's pretty much Hillary's voting record.  They're senators.  Their voting records can be made to look like anything, and for a variety of good reasons that most people neither know nor care about.   This is largely why a Senator hasn't been elected to the presidency in my lifetime.

---

Gina - well, there it is again.  The implication that the only possible reason for Hillary not beating Obama is sexism.  This race, in the minds of some of Hillary's supporters, has suddenly been reduced to a black penis vs. a white vagina.  It's insulting to the candidates and insulting to the people who support them on both sides.  Obama's supporters, myself (and my wife) included, will do anything "to keep a dick in the White House."  That smacks of more than sore-loserdom - it's downright patronizing.  

For over a year, this was a campaign of ideas.  Even when the race winnowed down to just Hillary and Obama, with Hillary still ahead, it was a race between two individuals.  Suddenly, it's not.  Now it's a sexist nation rejecting a candidate just because of unsurmountable gender bias.

In a word:  Bullshit.  The sexism is there.  Yes it is.  Absolutely.  But there are a lot of very real reasons why Hillary is down (but definitely not out):

&lt;b&gt;The Press.&lt;/b&gt;  They've been unfair to her lately.  Very unfair.   This is not necessarily because she's a woman, though.  Much of it has to do with the Obama-mania thing, and even more of it has to do with Hillary's campaign's behavior over this past year.   According to everything I've read and heard, they've been officious, unresponsive, and relentless - a virtual White House In Waiting.  In huge contrast to Obama, who isn't very accessible but doesn't dispatch winged monkeys to the back of the plane every ten minutes, Hillary's every speech is followed by tag-team flacks lobbying reporters ceaselessly to buy the official version of the story.  The press were looking for a chance to rebel, I'd say.

&lt;b&gt;The Charisma.&lt;/b&gt;  Hillary's a lot of things, but she's not magnetic.  This is not a gender problem - she has the same presence-gap that crippled John Kerry, (the pre-anger) Al Gore, and much of the last entire generation of liberal technocrats.  I voted for her in New York.  I believe she would govern well.  I don't think "being inspirational" is a necessary quality for a candidate, but it sure as hell becomes important if there are any other charismatic candidates in the race.   Hillary doesn't have to "be an Obama."  But even before his ascension, I found myself wishing she could be an Ann Richards.

&lt;b&gt;The War&lt;/b&gt;  It goes beyond the war authorization (which is huge for me, but it's not the whole ballgame).   Hillary has been one of the most hawkish Democrats, rhetoric-wise, that I've ever seen.  I think only Joe Lieberman out-hawks her.  For the past year, her supporters have been assuring me that this is because as a woman hoping to be President, she needs to establish herself as strong on defense.  Maybe this is true.  But voters have only her words to go on.  To be fair, she is hampered by the fact that she started gearing up for her run while the war was still relatively popular.

&lt;b&gt;The Strategy&lt;/b&gt;  Hillary hasn't run a terrible campaign, but it sure hasn't been great.  Their "big state" strategy was nearly as fatal as Giuliani's, and the campaign frittered away its money while Obama conserved (for instance, he ditched one of his campaign planes in January, which had the twin effect of bringing the press closer to him AND saving a buttload of money).  The "Clintonesque" War Room has actually been a little slow, at least compared to Obama's.  And - most of all - they simply had NO strategy for anything after Super Tuesday.  I'm not making this up - Hillary stated at least twice in late 2007 that she thought the race would be decided by February 5th.  If you read about the petty, uncontrolled infighting in her campaign right now, it's a wonder that she's still doing so well.

&lt;b&gt;The pedigree&lt;/b&gt;  To the "swing voter," Hillary's husband is not an asset.  A lot of voters associate Clintons and Bushes with 16 years of bitter, juvenile acrimony.  I don't think this is the Clintons' fault.  But it is neither stupid nor naive to want to see a government that behaves more like it did before the rise of talk radio and the poo-flinging right wing.  There is some evidence that they may be weakening.  A lot of voters see more hope for harmony in anyone who's not a Bush or a Clinton.


So... there.  A bunch of non-genital-related reasons why Hillary might be struggling.  And that doesn't even touch on the biggest:  A lot of perfectly bright, progressive women and men think that Obama would make a good President.  Calling such people sexist or deluded isn't going to change a lot of minds, and I don't think it's entirely accurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ann, I don&#8217;t find those links too persuasive.  The first one takes itself apart, to my mind.  For instance,  Obama committed the sin of not being stupid enough, in 2004, to think that an immediate US withdrawal was a good idea.  In that, he was basically in lockstep with John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and more or less every responsible Democrat, regardless of whether they thought starting the war was a good idea.</p>
<p>They were all correct, I think.  Tragically, we were at the beginning of the long, horrifying insurgency, and we had responsibilities born of Bush&#8217;s colossal  blunder.</p>
<p>As for the voting record rundown of the second link&#8230; Meh.  It&#8217;s pretty much Hillary&#8217;s voting record.  They&#8217;re senators.  Their voting records can be made to look like anything, and for a variety of good reasons that most people neither know nor care about.   This is largely why a Senator hasn&#8217;t been elected to the presidency in my lifetime.</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>Gina - well, there it is again.  The implication that the only possible reason for Hillary not beating Obama is sexism.  This race, in the minds of some of Hillary&#8217;s supporters, has suddenly been reduced to a black penis vs. a white vagina.  It&#8217;s insulting to the candidates and insulting to the people who support them on both sides.  Obama&#8217;s supporters, myself (and my wife) included, will do anything &#8220;to keep a dick in the White House.&#8221;  That smacks of more than sore-loserdom - it&#8217;s downright patronizing.  </p>
<p>For over a year, this was a campaign of ideas.  Even when the race winnowed down to just Hillary and Obama, with Hillary still ahead, it was a race between two individuals.  Suddenly, it&#8217;s not.  Now it&#8217;s a sexist nation rejecting a candidate just because of unsurmountable gender bias.</p>
<p>In a word:  Bullshit.  The sexism is there.  Yes it is.  Absolutely.  But there are a lot of very real reasons why Hillary is down (but definitely not out):</p>
<p><b>The Press.</b>  They&#8217;ve been unfair to her lately.  Very unfair.   This is not necessarily because she&#8217;s a woman, though.  Much of it has to do with the Obama-mania thing, and even more of it has to do with Hillary&#8217;s campaign&#8217;s behavior over this past year.   According to everything I&#8217;ve read and heard, they&#8217;ve been officious, unresponsive, and relentless - a virtual White House In Waiting.  In huge contrast to Obama, who isn&#8217;t very accessible but doesn&#8217;t dispatch winged monkeys to the back of the plane every ten minutes, Hillary&#8217;s every speech is followed by tag-team flacks lobbying reporters ceaselessly to buy the official version of the story.  The press were looking for a chance to rebel, I&#8217;d say.</p>
<p><b>The Charisma.</b>  Hillary&#8217;s a lot of things, but she&#8217;s not magnetic.  This is not a gender problem - she has the same presence-gap that crippled John Kerry, (the pre-anger) Al Gore, and much of the last entire generation of liberal technocrats.  I voted for her in New York.  I believe she would govern well.  I don&#8217;t think &#8220;being inspirational&#8221; is a necessary quality for a candidate, but it sure as hell becomes important if there are any other charismatic candidates in the race.   Hillary doesn&#8217;t have to &#8220;be an Obama.&#8221;  But even before his ascension, I found myself wishing she could be an Ann Richards.</p>
<p><b>The War</b>  It goes beyond the war authorization (which is huge for me, but it&#8217;s not the whole ballgame).   Hillary has been one of the most hawkish Democrats, rhetoric-wise, that I&#8217;ve ever seen.  I think only Joe Lieberman out-hawks her.  For the past year, her supporters have been assuring me that this is because as a woman hoping to be President, she needs to establish herself as strong on defense.  Maybe this is true.  But voters have only her words to go on.  To be fair, she is hampered by the fact that she started gearing up for her run while the war was still relatively popular.</p>
<p><b>The Strategy</b>  Hillary hasn&#8217;t run a terrible campaign, but it sure hasn&#8217;t been great.  Their &#8220;big state&#8221; strategy was nearly as fatal as Giuliani&#8217;s, and the campaign frittered away its money while Obama conserved (for instance, he ditched one of his campaign planes in January, which had the twin effect of bringing the press closer to him AND saving a buttload of money).  The &#8220;Clintonesque&#8221; War Room has actually been a little slow, at least compared to Obama&#8217;s.  And - most of all - they simply had NO strategy for anything after Super Tuesday.  I&#8217;m not making this up - Hillary stated at least twice in late 2007 that she thought the race would be decided by February 5th.  If you read about the petty, uncontrolled infighting in her campaign right now, it&#8217;s a wonder that she&#8217;s still doing so well.</p>
<p><b>The pedigree</b>  To the &#8220;swing voter,&#8221; Hillary&#8217;s husband is not an asset.  A lot of voters associate Clintons and Bushes with 16 years of bitter, juvenile acrimony.  I don&#8217;t think this is the Clintons&#8217; fault.  But it is neither stupid nor naive to want to see a government that behaves more like it did before the rise of talk radio and the poo-flinging right wing.  There is some evidence that they may be weakening.  A lot of voters see more hope for harmony in anyone who&#8217;s not a Bush or a Clinton.</p>
<p>So&#8230; there.  A bunch of non-genital-related reasons why Hillary might be struggling.  And that doesn&#8217;t even touch on the biggest:  A lot of perfectly bright, progressive women and men think that Obama would make a good President.  Calling such people sexist or deluded isn&#8217;t going to change a lot of minds, and I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s entirely accurate.
</p>
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		<title>by: Fran</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29355</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29355</guid>
					<description>There's a post on Nicola Griffith's MySpace page (I know, MySpace, but work with me here) and I'll try to link it, but we know Fanny and links.  

Anyway, Nicola's British but has been living here for ages, and the person whose thoughts she has shared is a Canadian media person who has some quite interesting thoughts on the Clinton/Obama presentations and how they're designed to win our hearts, not our minds.   

Just food for thought and discussion, until Adam gives us another blank piece of paper.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&#38;friendID=167271744&#38;blogID=362949777</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a post on Nicola Griffith&#8217;s MySpace page (I know, MySpace, but work with me here) and I&#8217;ll try to link it, but we know Fanny and links.  </p>
<p>Anyway, Nicola&#8217;s British but has been living here for ages, and the person whose thoughts she has shared is a Canadian media person who has some quite interesting thoughts on the Clinton/Obama presentations and how they&#8217;re designed to win our hearts, not our minds.   </p>
<p>Just food for thought and discussion, until Adam gives us another blank piece of paper.</p>
<p><a href="http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&amp;friendID=167271744&amp;blogID=362949777" rel="nofollow">http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&amp;friendID=167271 744&amp;blogID=362949777</a>
</p>
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		<title>by: Dirk's Diary</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29354</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 14:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29354</guid>
					<description>3-02-08

Dear Diary,

I had to ask Mildred on Friday what the difference is between Moonbats and Wingnuts?  She gave me the most piteous look and said something about hearing a beignet calling her name. As she closed the office door on the way out I heard a series of snickers and snorts. She's still undecided about retirement, so maybe I should just make a concerted effort to mask my noobiness and try to project the image of professionalism, that I belong in DC running with the big dogs, that I am one of the more deserving and competent of the Bush appointees. In all modesty, I probably am, but then W set the bar on the bottom peg when he rode into town.

I unexpectedly went home for lunch that afternoon and caught Patricia in the backyard going through her flaming baton routine from our college Homecoming Halftime show. Good thing the baton wasn't lit, is all I can say. She was quite the eye candy in those days, though, and she still is in my book.

Dick Cheney has missed the last several Cabinet meetings. Scuttlebutt has it that he's in his White House bunker getting "medical treatments". W said to pay no attention to the dimming lights, as Eliane Chao droned on about the new, improved union busting techniques she's employing. If Cheney were to pass, that would leave me seventh in line. I'm running out of time for all the stars to align, the "plane crash" to happen and my ascendancy to the Presidency. Maybe I'll console myself by flying down to Puerto Rico and checking out that spewing and exploding sewage treatment plant report that's been filling my email for that last six weeks. Maybe I should take Patricia along with me and catch a few rays while we're there. Why not? These taxpayer junkets will be a thing of the past before I know it.

Dirk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>3-02-08</p>
<p>Dear Diary,</p>
<p>I had to ask Mildred on Friday what the difference is between Moonbats and Wingnuts?  She gave me the most piteous look and said something about hearing a beignet calling her name. As she closed the office door on the way out I heard a series of snickers and snorts. She&#8217;s still undecided about retirement, so maybe I should just make a concerted effort to mask my noobiness and try to project the image of professionalism, that I belong in DC running with the big dogs, that I am one of the more deserving and competent of the Bush appointees. In all modesty, I probably am, but then W set the bar on the bottom peg when he rode into town.</p>
<p>I unexpectedly went home for lunch that afternoon and caught Patricia in the backyard going through her flaming baton routine from our college Homecoming Halftime show. Good thing the baton wasn&#8217;t lit, is all I can say. She was quite the eye candy in those days, though, and she still is in my book.</p>
<p>Dick Cheney has missed the last several Cabinet meetings. Scuttlebutt has it that he&#8217;s in his White House bunker getting &#8220;medical treatments&#8221;. W said to pay no attention to the dimming lights, as Eliane Chao droned on about the new, improved union busting techniques she&#8217;s employing. If Cheney were to pass, that would leave me seventh in line. I&#8217;m running out of time for all the stars to align, the &#8220;plane crash&#8221; to happen and my ascendancy to the Presidency. Maybe I&#8217;ll console myself by flying down to Puerto Rico and checking out that spewing and exploding sewage treatment plant report that&#8217;s been filling my email for that last six weeks. Maybe I should take Patricia along with me and catch a few rays while we&#8217;re there. Why not? These taxpayer junkets will be a thing of the past before I know it.</p>
<p>Dirk
</p>
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		<title>by: sharon</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29353</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29353</guid>
					<description>"why do wingnuts have such venom for vietnam veterans?"

It's jealousy, lurker dave. They were too chicken--or had "other priorities"--to serve themselves, so they have to knock down anyone who did serve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;why do wingnuts have such venom for vietnam veterans?&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s jealousy, lurker dave. They were too chicken&#8211;or had &#8220;other priorities&#8221;&#8211;to serve themselves, so they have to knock down anyone who did serve.
</p>
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		<title>by: sharon</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29352</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29352</guid>
					<description>Well said, David!

Luke 12:48: "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required." John, Bobby, and Ted lived (and died) by it, and so do many of their children.

Would that more of our politicians took that to heart. Instead we get the Boy King, who moaned all throughout his first term that "Being president is Hard Work."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, David!</p>
<p>Luke 12:48: &#8220;For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.&#8221; John, Bobby, and Ted lived (and died) by it, and so do many of their children.</p>
<p>Would that more of our politicians took that to heart. Instead we get the Boy King, who moaned all throughout his first term that &#8220;Being president is Hard Work.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: Ms. Pompomposity</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29351</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 05:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29351</guid>
					<description>Sputter, sputter, sputter (accompanied by bilious drool).  Er.. um... go team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sputter, sputter, sputter (accompanied by bilious drool).  Er.. um&#8230; go team.
</p>
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		<title>by: Jim (OJNTNJ)</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29350</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 05:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29350</guid>
					<description>Is Cotton channeling Confutious now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is Cotton channeling Confutious now?
</p>
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		<title>by: Cotton Mather</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29349</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 03:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2008/02/26/the-throwdown/#comment-29349</guid>
					<description>Pops always says "Tis better to throwdown than throwup."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pops always says &#8220;Tis better to throwdown than throwup.&#8221;
</p>
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