It’s several days late, I know, but I thought I’d share some thoughts about this week’s CNN-YouTube Republican Debate. Yes, I watched it… so you didn’t have to. No, that’s not right - you really didn’t have to, period. Very little happened beyond the highly-publicized smackdownage. Still, I learned some things….
Mitt Romney is as mean as a snake. This surprised me. I’d sort of bought into the whole Evil Vampire (Giuliani) vs. Slick Technocrat (Romney) caricature. As it turns out, it’s more like Vampire Technocrat (Giuliani) vs. Crocodile In A Man-Suit (Romney). On issue after issue (immigration, torture, immigration, and immigration) Romney managed to smile winningly while verbally disemboweling the evil people at the heart off the issue (terrorists, Mexicans) and his fellow candidates.
Immigration is the new gay marriage. This might come as a surprise to Democrats and Independents, but some time in the past couple of months our borders broke and illegal immigrants came pouring in. They are sneaking around, nefariously cleaning our dishes and picking our vegetables and caring for our babies and they must be stopped! If the audience at this debate was any indication, Republican voters will happily ignore the fact that our economy can’t function without the millions of undocumented workers that are already here. They’d much rather hear an inspirational fairy tale about how the lettuce will somehow find a way to get itself picked while some righteous strongman Prezinator personally frog-marches those 12 million criminal laborers across the border and slams shut the newly-constructed double-reinforced penitentiary gate.
As a “wedge issue,” this makes even less sense than gay marriage or abortion rights, but it’s what the GOP has chosen this year, and the base is frothing mad. Those illegal monsters! How DARE they bring us another basket of bread (and some more of that garlic butter, please)!?
Mike Huckabee is eating Mitt Romney’s lunch. That’s widely reported, but perhaps under-analyzed. Basically, as the shapeshifting Romney’s been trying to strike the perfect balance between being Tougher than Giuliani while hanging onto the Most Christian Frontrunner cred (which Giuliani doesn’t want for a variety of reasons, not the least of which involves his traditional vampiric distaste for two slats of wood at right angles…) - anyway, straddling these roles has forced Romney to rock it in vengeful, Old Testament-style (a book, note, that is one volume removed from most Christians in terms of Latest and Greatest, and two full books removed from Romney’s own infinitely weirder volume of 19th century upstate New York revelations), which has opened the door not just for ultra-likable preachers like Huckabee, but even for normally secular old pols like McCain to chide Romney for his less-than-entirely charitable beliefs that, for instance, illegal immigrants’ children (even if they’re benevolent young geniuses who are inventing vaccines by the third grade) should be kept subservient to their classmates (even if they can’t fit a square peg into an empty swimming pool), and terror suspects should be enthusiastically drowned until they become terror convicts. Given all this, it’s no wonder that no amount of pointy-toothed smiling will hide the contrast between Romney’s carnivorous “faithiness” and Huckabee’s genuinely Christian values.
Bonus Unintentionally Funniest Line of the Debate. “So far, it’s been wonderful, because all I’ve heard is people trying to out-Tancredo Tancredo.” - Tom Tancredo. Despite the fact that this is somewhat true (he was talking about being on the cutting edge of wanting to seal the borders so that our own, legal children can realize their dreams of cleaning the toilets at rest stops), you are simply not permitted make your name into a verb when you’re polling slightly below “Who?” (1%) and slightly above “That guy with the hair, I think” (.23%).
Fanny Roborat
76 comments
John
December 2, 2007 at 3:49 pm
1I live in a Mexican neighborhood, most of whom enjoy “illegal” status, and I know of no dishwashers or grape pickers.
The many I do know are construction workers, who make between 30-40 dollars an hour, gardeners, who make an average of 20-30 and hour, mechanics, who make 20-30 an hours, and and many of their kids who work at places such as McDonalds, and a number of them are waiters and waitresses, whom I would presume make around 15-20 an hour.
I have an acquaintance who owns an avocado farm, and he now pays 13 dollars an hour for his pickers, and he never gets the same pickers for the following season. They all move on to construction jobs and the like.
Years ago, they always returned. Now none ever return after the first harvest.
The ball game has changed dramatically, Mr. Felber.
You need to keep up.
gregory
December 2, 2007 at 3:52 pm
2Frog walking 12 million illegals to the border is an interesting mental image. Maybe even better than the hundreds of filipino inmates in orange jumpsuits dancing a choreographed routine of “Thriller” out on the exercise yard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o
After seeing that video, I really think they’ve probably paid their debt to society. But let’s keep them in the slammer anyway. I wouldn’t want these guys homeless and dancing for spare change in my neighborhood.
casfindad
December 2, 2007 at 4:05 pm
3I know it’s off topic, but I thought you and your readers might enjoy this sketch, courtesy of the CBC show “This Hour Has 22 Minutes”. Wait for the end and you’ll see why I thought if you and your fellow writers.
casfindad
P.S. Hang tight and good luck with the strike.
sharon
December 2, 2007 at 4:27 pm
4John, do you think their employers bear any responsibility? Do you and your fellow citizens decline to patronize establishments that you know to be employing illegals? Have you stopped purchasing fruits and vegetables grown in our southern and western states? Have you stopped hiring those construction companies to build new homes and those fancy stone walls that straddle every other driveway here in southwestern Connecticut?
I don’t know about your neighborhood, but the entire economy of Fairfield County would collapse if Tancredo had his way.
But of course it’s all an act. Those guys may be mean, but they’re not stupid. They know that they’re never going to stop illegal immigration–their corporate masters would never allow it. It’s all just more Bread & Circuses for the disappearing middle class.
Dale
December 2, 2007 at 4:56 pm
5And also could someone explain to me how the fact of being born in one nation or another makes you a person with more or less right to support yourself, have a family, get an education etc?
Brilliant satire, btw, I just wish it were more ¨fanciful zany comedy¨ and less ¨the truth with some funny.¨
fardels bear
December 2, 2007 at 5:04 pm
6Garlic butter. Yum.
Soft on "Illegals"
December 2, 2007 at 6:43 pm
7Well put, Dale.
Down this way the “illegals” still harvest the crops, especially the South Florida crops. Oranges are mostly gone, but they were mostly picked by blacks. And “illegals” do play a significant role in the construction trades, which have taken a nosedive of late. But $20-$40 an hour? Do you not have enough “legals” to jump on those jobs? Actually, John, it sounds like your neighborhood is a great place for anyone who wants to work. Who pays a gardener $30 an hour?
Isn’t Tancredo off-Spanish for caca for brains?
Dave von Ebers
December 2, 2007 at 6:47 pm
8Um, John, I don’t know what kind of restaurants are in your neighborhood, but none of the restaurants in my town pay wait staff and busboys $15-20 per hour.
More to the point, the problem of “illegal” immigration is one of economic corruption overseas more than immigration policy at home. The folks who come here “illegally” (note that despite the histrionics, it’s not a crime to violate the immigration regulations promulgated by the executive branch; coming into the U.S. without proper documentation is about as “illegal” as parking for 2:10 in a 2-hour zone) do so out of utter desperation and despite unbelievable risks. So chest-thumping and hand-wringing isn’t likely to deter them any time soon.
And if you want to pay the cost of rounding up 12 million souls and shipping them back to wherever, be my guest. For my part, I can barely afford the taxes I pay, and the taxes I pay are barely enough to educate my kids. So, if its the same to you, I’ll pass.
Still, it makes for great theater when these rich-white-and-right Republicans try to out-Tancredo one another.
Speaking of Tancredo, do you know that he spent the fifth anniversary of 9/11 talking to the League of the South … about (you guessed it) “illegal” immigration.
Sweet.
I mean, not that there’s any connection between white nationalism and the anti-immigration movement, or anything. I mean, I’m just sayin’ …
Murray
December 2, 2007 at 7:31 pm
9I doubt that there are any “illegals” in Bedford Co. As it stands blacks make up only 0.3% of the population, and I don’t see many other ethnic groups very often. But that doesn’t keep the hearty Republicans from thinking it is a real threat to the area. Of course worrying about not having health care for a third of the population is no big deal, nor is a war with out end, nor a coming recession, nor…..
As long as there is something to scare the simpleminded, they will stay in power.
Kjell Mikkelsen
December 2, 2007 at 7:44 pm
10John, you are make wild guess about wages, ja. Tug at from din ass these numbers?
Honk, Adam! Honk, honk!
SeattleDan
December 2, 2007 at 9:50 pm
11Honk!
It’s not just the $30-40 per hour construction/gardening jobs the illegals are getting. No, sir. They want our women, too. Not just our women. They want our kids. And our dogs. And our cats. They want damn near everything, damn them.
We throw open our arms, and this is the thanks we get.
John
December 2, 2007 at 11:53 pm
12The point I was making, which hasn’t changed, is that many illegals have middle class jobs, and most no longer work in the fields more than a couple of seasons at most. They move on into the mainstream workforce in one capacity or another.
As far as the racism allegation is concerned…
Over 70% of the population in Compton is now Mexicans.
African Americans are also becoming disenfranchised from their way of life, and being confronted with racially motivated confrontations, many are moving back to the south… only to find there are tons of illegals claiming new residence in places such as Atlanta.
The only racism I can fathom in all this is the allowance of illegal immigrants to rapidly displace African Americans from their jobs, and communities, while “whitey” peels an avocado in Connecticut.
Boomer
December 3, 2007 at 4:18 am
13SeattleDan, they want us women, our kids, our cats??!!! Well… OK…. (Are the men cute?)
Bits
December 3, 2007 at 6:29 am
14John — maybe in your neck of the woods illegal aliens have moved into the middle class. But Adam’s view still holds here: true, they’re not actually in the fields picking veggies (it’s a city, so we don’t have many of those), but they’re doing the dishes, and mowing the lawns, and generally cleaning up after us. (And I doubt many of those jobs get into the double-digits an hour, let alone provide benefits or security of any sort. I speak with some knowledge of this end of the labor market: I’m scraping my way through school … and they’re still not jobs I’d take.)
Dale
December 3, 2007 at 8:01 am
15Ah yes, John, I lived in LA in the 80s and 90s and remember the idyllic, full-employment paradise that was African-American Compton before the Mexicans moved in.
You´re supposed to peel the avocados? Crap, no wonder I don´t feel so well.
Dave von Ebers
December 3, 2007 at 9:13 am
16Interesting spin on immigration: Turn African Americans against Latinos. Brilliant stuff. So, why are there so many white nationalists in the anti-immigration movement? Why does Tom Tancredo — from Colorado, no less — take his anti-immigration rant to the League of the South rather than the NAACP?
And why isn’t Operation PUSH all over that anti-immigration thing, I wonder.
In fact, here in Chicago I have yet to hear a single African American leader say one word about Latinos “destroying” the black community or their “way of life,” whatever that means. Not a word.
Meanwhile, a few years back the State of Texas conducted a study of the economic impact of “illegal” immigration on the state’s coffers and concluded that “illegals” provided a net benefit … that is, they paid more into the system than they took out. So, Texas, it seems, is better off than it would be if the anti-immigration folks had their way.
Hmmm.
Dave von Ebers
December 3, 2007 at 9:15 am
17By the way, they can’t have my cats.
I mean, just in case you think I’m soft on that immigration thing.
Steve
December 3, 2007 at 9:53 am
18Actually, the “illegal” component is more likely to be working in the “back of the house” than as wait staff. Maybe bussing tables but it’s more likely they’re either washing dishes or at the grill. And when they are, they’ll cook your tail under the table, gabacho.
Adam Felber
December 3, 2007 at 10:21 am
19We seem to be arguing for no reason at all here.
John, whether or not their are illegal immigrants in your area earning $50,000 - $70,000 a year (and, I mean… wow!), I think my point stands: Somebody’s picking tomatoes, and its not me, you, the African American community, or anybody else who is trying to live in America rather than ship money home.
As an example - according to Human Rights Watch, “Agricultural workers in Florida earn from U.S. $2,500 to U.S. $7,500 on average per year, depending on a number of factors including immigration status.”
Even at the Republican debate I was a talking about above, there was a question from a fruit farmer begging the candidates to expand the “guest worker” program so that he could continue to run his business. [Poor sucker, trying to do it legally…]
You would find similar (though somewhat higher) wages in the whole “scrubbing toilets and cleaning dishes” sector as well. As a guy who used to work in the service profession in high school, I knew that I couldn’t have lived on what I was making, and the guys in the kitchen were making less.
Like the candidates, I’d ask you or anyone else to tell me how our economy is going to function with the sudden disappearance of around 10 million workers.
[And Steve, I’m gonna stand by my observation about the guys who bring the bread.]
Gary
December 3, 2007 at 10:25 am
20Hmmm… I wonder if the declining salmon runs up here have anything to do with those Mexican ‘aliens’. We have quite a population of them up here in the northwest (Mexicans that is, not so much the salmon any more).
I’ll ask that African-American salmon fishing guy I know and report back.
Ann
December 3, 2007 at 11:02 am
21Well, John has said what so many people think, which is that the real problem with “illegals” (i.e., Mexicans) is that they’re taking jobs that rightfully belong to black people, who are all now on welfare. Yes, that’s right—the immigration “crisis” is just enabling all those “welfare queens” who drive around in Cadillacs, sucking us taxpayers dry. I think the Mexicans and the African-Americans might just be in league to destroy all that’s good and holy in America! By which I mean white people, of course.
Unless it’s about terrorism. Is that it? ‘Cause I’m totally against terrorism. Those terrorists aren’t white either, you know, and the Mexicans are just leaving the door wide open for terrorists to sneak across the border after them.
And what if Dan’s right, and they want our women? I feel a swoon coming on.
Harold
December 3, 2007 at 11:16 am
22By the way, Gay Marriage is also the new Gay Marriage. Last week the bishop of our diocese (and I’m sure all Bishops throughout the U.S.) required all parish priests to read to their congregations a letter exhorting them to wite to their Senators and Representatives to take a stand against Gay Marriage, Civil Unions, or any other construct which would have equal footing with Traditional Marriages. Which, unless they are performed under the auspices of the One Holy Roman Catholic Apostolic Church, are invalid and doom the participants to hellfire eternal, unless their sins are loosed by a duly ordained priest of the aforementioned church. Taxes, titles, and other fees may apply.
John
December 3, 2007 at 1:08 pm
23Adam, again, my point was that illegal immigrants from Mexico aren’t all washing dishes and picking avocados.
A significant, growing number are moving into the mainstream workforce, and it’s not bound to subside anytime soon, and middle-class workers who are citizens of this country, are being displaced.
I never advocated sending the over 10 million illegals back to Mexico.
I tried to indicate that the stereotype has changed, and hoped to imply that securing our borders might be a good thing to do as soon as possible.
Also, you might find this quote from Jennifer Coleman of the Associated Press to be interesting:
While income for much of the nation has recovered since the recession of the early 1990s, more California workers earn poverty-level wages now than a decade ago…. A review of state incomes by the California Budget Project reveals a growing gap between California and the rest of the nation, researcher Jean Ross said. “It is a huge disparity,” Ross said. “For decades and decades, incomes in California have exceeded those of the rest of the nation.” That is no longer the case, she said. Adjusted for inflation, the median income of a four-person family in California declined $1,069 since 1989, while nationally, that figure rose $2,477, researchers found…. “We’ve had tremendous growth in the number of jobs, but not in wage growth.”
The last time I checked “supply and demand” theory, it stated that an oversupply of X lessens the demand for X.
So, the continuing onslaught of illegal immigration is even affecting the quality of life for illegal immigrants!
To repeat, I don’t advocate sending back all the illegals to Mexico. I advocate securing our borders. I’m also pointing out that illegal immigration is a different game for california than it was even 10 years ago.
Pope Benny 16
December 3, 2007 at 2:06 pm
24Watch it, Harold - you’re dancing perilously close to the edge of the abyss, mein freund!
hedera
December 3, 2007 at 3:34 pm
25Why do I think that they want our women! is about to join CUT OFF YOUR HEADS! as a repeating shorthand line in this group??
As for those jobs in construction: this is one guy talking to me, but listen to what he said. Our neighbors put an extra half story on their house two years ago, and as I was recovering from knee surgery at the time, I spent some time gassing with the foreman. They did a beautiful job, by the way.
The foreman complained that he has tried to hire American workers, and they either won’t take the pay (not union but competitive for construction work), or they won’t show up and do the job that needs to be done. (His problem may be that he’s hiring in the S.F. Bay Area, which has nothing if it hasn’t got ‘Tude…) He hires guys like his Brazilian sheetrocker (we didn’t discuss the immigration status, but you note he’s NOT Mexican) because the guy shows up, works like a demon and does a beautiful job. My dad was like that, in his day. I don’t know if Americans have changed or if the foreman was trying to hire college kids in Marin. But in his case, he claims no Americans have been displaced because none wanted to hire on and do the work. OK, anecdotal, I grant you. But leaving the salary aside, I agree with John that there are a lot of Hispanic-looking guys building houses these days.
In a broader view, for months I’ve been reading terrified rants from the California agricultural industry on the general line of “who’s going to pick the crops?” - and I guarantee you, folks, Americans haven’t picked crops in California since Tom Joad and his real counterparts in the ’30s.
The whole idea of OUR guvmint trying to get 12 million people to do ANYTHING AT ALL, all at once - much less all go back to Mexico (which they don’t all come from) - is just SO weird that the mind boggles. These are the people who couldn’t respond to Hurricane Katrina because they were deciding on what tie to wear for the press conference. Yeah, that guy is gone, but he’s a symptom.
And speaking of hurricanes, SeattleDan and SeattleTammy, how are you guys? The news reports from up there sound pretty bad, and your last post was last night…
hedera
December 3, 2007 at 3:36 pm
26Also, I agree with Adam about the bread (and garlic butter!) - in a lot of restaurants, the guy who clears the tables also delivers the bread. If you look at the servers, though, you’ll notice he’s NOT the one who takes your order. But in some restaurants, he doesn’t bring the bread; it just depends.
Gary
December 3, 2007 at 3:42 pm
27Wow! Undocumented workers are giving up gardening jobs averaging $52,000 a year to push African Americans out of mainstream jobs in California that pay less than they did in 1989!!!
And Atlanta’s next…
Murray
December 3, 2007 at 4:11 pm
28John,
“The last time I checked “supply and demand” theory, it stated that an oversupply of X lessens the demand for X.
So, the continuing onslaught of illegal immigration is even affecting the quality of life for illegal immigrants!”
Let me get this straight.
Mexicans are taking middle American jobs between $30 - $70,000 a year. (Maybe I should move to Mexico, change my citizenship and sneak across the border so that I can triple my income). BUT at the same time the median income in California has dropped. So the Mexicans are doing high paid work and, surprisingly enough, native Californians have had so many children who are willing to take the very low paying jobs that by doing so have lowered the average of all jobs.
Who would have thought?
Dave von Ebers
December 3, 2007 at 6:05 pm
29Well, seems to me “oversupply” doesn’t “lessen demand,” but it may depress wages. True enough. But so too does the immigration status of migrant workers. “Illegal” workers aren’t in a position to complain about wages, hours and working conditions. That, however, is easily remedied if they are allowed to work here legally. If “illegal” workers were no longer “illegal,” and therefore in a better position to demand their rights (not to mention, simply to demand higher wages and better conditions), the wage-depressive effects of their “illegal” status goes bye-bye.
That, by the way, is the technical legal term … “bye-bye.”
Of course, oversupply of workers in any field will still depress wages; but it’s not the only reason construction wages are kept low in some areas of the country … particularly in those non-union areas in the South and in some parts of the West.
The truth is, in many fields other than construction, the major problem has always been the ability of the employer to exploit the “illegal” worker because of his or her “illegal” status. There’s no “oversupply” of agricultural workers, so far as I can tell. But wages remain depressed for, I think, obvious reasons.
Then again, we used to drive around with UFW bumper stickers on the back of our 1969 VW Microbus, so what do I know.
piglet
December 3, 2007 at 6:16 pm
30Whew, that was some storm. It makes all the roofing in the summer of ‘06 (sorry, illegals - we did it ourselves) and the sick tree removal this summer seem like good ideas after all.
I-5 (yes THE I-5) will be closed between Portland and Seattle maybe until Thursday due to flooding. There’s really no alternative route except by air or boat, so plan accordingly.
BTW - casfindad - that clip was funny (death by chest hole! Ha!). Thanks.
SeattleDan
December 3, 2007 at 8:06 pm
31We’re ok here, though there are areas in Seattle with lot of standing water. We live close enough to where Tammy works and the store, we haven’t had too many problems, other than getting drenched once we’re outside. It is windy, but nearly so severe as is happening on the Oregon/Washington coasts, where there have been gusts upto 125 mph. Maybe all the high winds have removed the illegals back to where they came from.
I know Ann has to travel over the floating bridge across Lake Washington to get to work…hope she’s doing ok. Traffic around here is pretty miserable. And hope our friends down south are doing fine.
Ann
December 4, 2007 at 12:17 am
32I didn’t drive over the bridge on Monday, but the water was so high in my neighborhood that the intersection closest to my house was closed off—water was up to the tops of the wheel wells on those cars left on the street. Fortunately, my house is at the top of a small hill.
Tomorrow (Tuesday) I’ll be making my way across the floating bridge, but—as the name implies—it floats! How bad could that be?
gillian
December 4, 2007 at 4:40 am
33I’m glad to hear everyone seems to have survived the big storm in the PNW. Our big storm came down quietly, one unobtrusive flake after another after another after another…. until it was 20″ deep. Driving is out, at least until later on this morning when Jimmy, next door, will come by to plow our long steep driveway. He’s a native and more than a little dorky, but, for a single 35 year old male, he’s not such a bad neighbor to have around. He knows about Heather and me - we don’t try to hide anything, don’t need to up here. He’s so sweet, he asked if we had any sisters. We both do (I have three). We’ll try to tempt them up here in the spring and see what happens. I’m pulling for Jimmy.
The Co-op is just a mile and half down the highway towards town. I may walk down there for some of their truly excellent Green Mountain French Roast and a muffin. Ciao!
Murray
December 4, 2007 at 1:25 pm
34Ann, you’ve seen my cabin and know how it is set on a mountain ridge, so we were a bit surprised when our insurance provider balked because they were concerned about flooding. I told them that if WE get flooded out there would be no one else left to take the claim.
Pretty windy and cool here but compared to no rain forever in the Carolinas, flooding in the upper left corner, and snow in the upper right, we are doing OK.
Ann
December 4, 2007 at 5:57 pm
35Murray, your cabin is built to float, isn’t it? Who needs flood insurance!
David
December 4, 2007 at 6:12 pm
36Ain’t gettin’ a hell of a lot of rain down here on the edge, either. Just upscale northeastern property tax rates and homeowner insurance to match property tax rates. Since when do insurance companies need as big a bite of the county economy as does the county government?
Just Jay
December 4, 2007 at 8:24 pm
37I had to leave Olympia early Monday morning on a business trip. Apparently I got out just in time. Several intersections where the water was halfway up the wheels when I left were well over car rooftops by mid day. In a odd way, I’m sorry to be gone. I like wild weather, and would have preferred to see it myself rather than in pictures.
Deep Sigh.
Jay
SeattleDan
December 4, 2007 at 11:12 pm
38It’s ok, Jay. You wouldn’t have liked it so much with your car submerged half-way into some intersection. Safe in your home is one thing…We haven’t heard from Becca (and Brian)…hope they’re ok.
SeattleDan
December 4, 2007 at 11:13 pm
39Or acronym Jim…check in guys!
John
December 4, 2007 at 11:22 pm
40“In a broader view, for months I’ve been reading terrified rants from the California agricultural industry on the general line of “who’s going to pick the crops?” - and I guarantee you, folks, Americans haven’t picked crops in California since Tom Joad and his real counterparts in the ’30s.”
The terrified rants are from farmers whose workers stay a season or two, then move on to construction jobs, or more “below the line” types of occupations that pay much better.
The construction foreman I know (who’s an illegal) says he’s booked for construction work until next july. He told me after july, he’s moving to Utah and buying a house.
This man is no lettuce picker. Drives a ford escelade.
I know a number of people with stories very similar to his.
The times they are a changing.
John
December 4, 2007 at 11:30 pm
41Gary,
Just google “illegal aliens” and “african americans,” read the citations, and decide for yourself what it means.
Have a good one.
Adam Felber
December 5, 2007 at 2:14 am
42Johm -
I get what you’re saying. I really do. I’m just not sure that your proposal actually accomplishes what you hope it will. It is the Republican mantra, but like the Iraq War, it looks to me like a tactic without a strategy.
Okay, we secure the borders in the morning. 8 AM, let’s say. Locked. Secure. Done.
Now what? Is that when we grant the 10 million amnesties that we said we wouldn’t grant? Do we keep those traditionally migrating workers IN? do we just pray that they don’t do what you say they ARE all doing and move on up the socio-economic ladder - pray that they don’t do that because then our borders will be “secure” and NOBODY will pick the tomatoes?
Of course, the borders won’t be secured overnight, and it WILL be terribly expensive, but even that would be worth it if someone had the courage to stand up and offer a coherent plan for What Comes Next.
But they don’t. They stick to “First We Secure The Borders.” Why? Because it’s sensible-sounding. And, I suspect, because the next step is exactly what the border-securers don’t want to come out and say: Another gigantic amnesty.
And one that leads to a locked-down, unsustainable model.
————
The only viable idea for keeping American agriculture (not to mention many other industries) alive with locked-down borders is some kind of “guest worker” program. And not a small one: You’re talking about setting up a government bureaucracy that has to account for hundreds of thousands of non-citizens.
Or, rather, you’re NOT talking about it. Nobody is. That’s the problem.
So please,, understand - it’s not that I don’t believe your story about upwardly-mobile illegal immigrants. But to me that seems much less significant to the immediate controversy than the the indispensable and still-unaccounted-for less-than-minimum-wage earners.
So I’ll continue to have a problem with the whole “first, we need to secure the borders” crowd once they stop pretending that we can’t even THINK about what comes next until it happens. It has to be thunk.
cooper
December 5, 2007 at 4:06 am
43Honk! Honk! Adam.
SeattleDan, just checking in. We’re completely dry here, with none of that pesky standing water for miles and miles and miles. Good luck to all you guys!
Also, I’m wondering about how Historienne is doing in dealing with her predicament. Can we get an update from our pal in Japan?
And Sharon, thanks again for that long ago shout-out for Northern Sun. I got a fair share of Christmas taken care of last week. Very unique liberal tchotches.
Honk!
Jim (OJNTNJ)
December 5, 2007 at 9:40 am
44Blub, blub, blep, bleep, beep, beep.
Thanks for the well wishes SeattleDan and other Fanappers.
I survived the storm with relatively little damage, which isn’t surprising since I’m in a second story apartment on comparitively high ground. Not much snow or wind in inner Portland, but plenty of rain.
Of course the balmy warm weather that followed was a welcome respite.
On the issue of immigration, folks rarely address the fact that it has become significantly more difficult to obtain LEGAL immigrant status since 911. Particularly for brown people.
As Garrison Keillor noted, we may have a more serious problem with the (paraphrasing here)”frost-backs that smuggle cheap pharmaceuticals across our northern border for sale to retirees.”(c)
O.K. who’s for building a wall across our northern border? I suspect numerous Canadians may join that cause.
waterfowler
December 5, 2007 at 12:45 pm
45Adam, those “border security first” nuts have a healthy distrust of our federal govt., as I’m certain you have also. I work w/ and around illegals all the time. It has to be the border first and then we have to deal w/ a guest worker program.
(Just an aside, but you seem to be selling what GW couldn’t.)
Dale, tell me what rights you would have in Mexico…or Venezuela, or Cuba, or Saudi……We all have all of the rights given to us by God minus those we are unwilling to protect from tyranny.
becca (and brian)
December 5, 2007 at 1:08 pm
46Hey all-
We’re fine. Just wringing out our shoes and rain coats. As Jim said, inner Portland actually didn’t get the exciting part of the storm. Just lots and lots and lots of sideways pouring rain (which Brian actually went out and ran 12 miles in. Craziness).
We were more concerned about the family cabin on the Oregon coast. Luckily our place is down in Waldport which was south of the Tilamook to Astoria flooded out zone. Once we made sure we hadn’t lost any of the roof we were able to relax.
Thanks to all for checking in.
:-) B (and b)
Pope Benny 16
December 5, 2007 at 2:17 pm
47I put in ein good word for all das Pacific North West Felbernauts during the Sunday Homily. My concern for your safety was great (plus we have a number of commercial buildings, thousands of acres of forest land and countless shore line properties that were also in danger). I’m gratified that the prayers were answered and all are safe. Amen.
john
December 5, 2007 at 2:58 pm
48Adam,
You’re right. It’s a huge mess, with so many voices and so many “approaches” that it’s pretty depressing.
I just think we should start with what we have, and go on from there. Securing the borders is an inevitability as population increases all over the planet, and resources become more scarce.
Probably a “work for amnesty” program would mitigate what I perceive as giving a bananna to our 500 pound gorilla without tearing up the house.
I just see our american culture, as I grew up in it, being drowned out by a cacaphony of voices from all over the world, with everyone focused on their particular interests. I don’t consider myself a nationalist, but I appreciate our history, and wouldn’t mind it remaining somewhat intact, instead of a massive import of other cultures overrunning, and eventually burying it.
To me, it’s not a matter of “too many immigrants.” It’s just too many at once. Too fast to assimilate, culturally and economically.
By all means, come to America, but please form a line.
btw, Mexico may be a “poor” country, but it also has produced 10 billionaires who thrive there, still carries monopolies, such as cell phone service, and virtually none of that money is being put to work for the average mexican.
These billionaires ought to be inspired, imo. Maybe if the folks who are crossing the border, couldn’t cross, they might take up their dissatisfaction with their billionaire citizens.
Maybe by us allowing somewhat easy entry into this country, we have be postponing an inevitable, morally justified confrontation between the have’s and have-nots, if we’d just make entry more difficult.
I believe sometimes we should just stand out of the way, don’t interfere, and let the uglier side of supply and demand take it’s course.
David
December 6, 2007 at 8:29 pm
49John, I think they assimilate economically as quickly as they are permitted to. Cultural assimilation is a different matter, but I think some recent studies indicate that second-generation immigrants from south of the border assimilate in a pattern similar to any other groups. Cubans in Miami are a different story, because they are here for different reasons and according to different standards than most other Hispanic immigrants. I don’t think any other group has spawned or been as defined by anything quite like the CANF. They fit right in with the Bush/Cheney machine, sharing about the same regard for the Constitution. Thankfully, the younger generations appear to be changing.
One really sad note: Jeb Bush put a Cuban-American on the state supreme court, which should be a progressive milestone. Problem is he’s the grandson of Battista. Jeb’s other contribution to the Florida supreme court bills himself in his self profile as a winner of the Christians in Florida Government award (I can’t remember now the exact name of the award, but it must be a Federalist Society thing).
I think one rambling point here might be that we are being morphed culturally from inside by “mainstream” Euro-American Christian conservatives, with Cuban-Americans running with that pack. But I gather that the rest of the Hispanic immigrants are trending Democratic, and that is likely as responsible as anything for the hot button right wing shit fit over immigrants from south of the Rio Grande. I cannot speak directly to what you are experiencing, of course, only what I am seeing here in the Sunshine State, and what I can glean regarding political motivations by the Party of God.
Also, wait until global warming hits overdrive, which it appears isn’t anywhere near as far off as previously projected. At that point, I guess it will be a matter of machine gun nests to take down the dispossed hordes. At any rate, I have to agree that closing the borders is way down the list of critical needs, and the current furor over “illegals” is mostly keeping the real crises off the table, or at least relatively marginalized.
I will say, however, that I think you do articulate from a pretty reasonable posture what your concerns are.
hedera
December 6, 2007 at 10:05 pm
50John, the problem with the dilution of our American culture isn’t the immigrants. It’s the inner city U.S. born kids who have gotten all the way through high school without learning to read, write or cipher (as they used to say) - and also, of course, without any knowledge of the civic structure that makes America unique. Of course the immigrants are changing America. They’ve been doing it for over 200 years. The previous immigrants have been complaining about it for over 200 years too - see Benj. Franklin’s complaints about the Germans, in the 1780s.
My take is that the immigrants enrich America tremendously - we have a fabulous tapestry here, with threads from all over the world. It’s worth defending that richness by continuing to extend the welcome. I remember in the 60’s when I first learned about Yiddish culture - I’d grown up in a small California town, raised by a Canadian Irishwoman and a former Missouri farm boy, and I’d never heard of a mensch, or a mitzvah, and I was only vaguely aware of Chanukah. The culture fascinated me, what wonderful language.
Only in America can we have a scion of an old (multiple generations in the area) New Mexico family, called (not his real name) Ed Gonzales, who is half Japanese. Every time I look around and see another example of the richness - American Russian marrying American Vietnamese, American Italian marrying American Czech, and on and on - I rejoice.
Furthermore, give the new immigrants 3 generations, and they’ll be complaining about the newer immigrants and insisting they learn English like the rest of us…
John
December 7, 2007 at 12:29 pm
51David, as far as securing the borders being way down the list from critical needs, I’d have to disagree. 1/5 of the born-in-Mexico population now resides in the United States. What other country can make a similar claim?
Multi-culturalism is an artifact of “full-bellyism.” When resources get more scarce, watch everyone start to square off into whatever “tribe” they identify with.
Most of the world does not have a full belly, by our bloated standards, and are never going to.
Now that California is running out of water (orange county is now on treated sewage for their tap water), it’s only a matter of time (and resources) before things can turn ugly.
Also, an unfortunate reality of what I consider your abstraction of multiculturalism is the fact that most mexicans have a view of african americans that would make a ku klux klanner blush.
It’s no accident that Compton, an historic african american city, is no longer so. They were essentially run out of there.
Race riots in southern california high schools seem to happen a little too often.
It makes me wonder if the motivating factor regarding the handling of illegal immigration by the “powers that be” don’t include some kind of racist slant. If so, it sure is working so far.
It’s what I’d call the stealth marginalization of african americans, and yes, some african americans have been getting vocal about it, and I can’t say they’re out of line to bring it up.
Dave von Ebers
December 8, 2007 at 7:34 pm
52Wow! America is on the verge of running out of resources and we’re all gonna end up reverting back to the ways of our racists ancestors! Germans versus Italians; Italians versus Irish; Blacks versus Mexicans! I suppose everybody’s gonna hate the Belgians, huh? (Obscure “Monty Python” reference, that.)
Meanwhile there are no African Americans left in Compton!! Oh, yeah … and Mexicans hate black folks!!!
Good God, man, if that’s really all happening in California, I feel sorry for you. Meanwhile, in the other forty-nine states, we’re not quite gripped by that post-apocolyptic Turner Diaries race-war mentality.
I mean, not yet anyway.
Holy crap … can you say hyperbole?
SeattleTammy
December 8, 2007 at 9:20 pm
53I loves me some Dave von E!
and John:
Multi-culturalism is an artifact of “full-bellyism.”
First feed the face, then talk right and wrong.
John
December 8, 2007 at 10:40 pm
54Dave, I like the style of creating a position, stamping it on the other person, as if they had actually come up with your premise, then taking it ever so far as to produce giggles.
Why let rational discourse spoil the party?
But you know, when whites were being dragged out of cars on Rodney King day, I would have loved to observe you as you travelled down to south central to convince the citizens there that we are all one.
I doubt that you would have found the motivation to do so, and I suspect that your reasoning might carry some racial, or cultural bias.
In the meantime, I hope the living in the 49 states from whatever planet you are from is easy, and the cotton is high. ; )
Dave von Ebers
December 10, 2007 at 7:14 am
55John, I think our respective comments speak for themselves. I’ll happily stand by my comments.
John
December 10, 2007 at 9:55 am
56Good show, dave! Nice talking with you.
David
December 11, 2007 at 6:49 am
57John, while as I said I cannot speak to your specific situation, I do think Dave von Ebers has correctly captured the national dynamic of what is unfolding, although interestingly it might not pay the dividends for the national Republican machine that they envision. It failed them most recently in Virginia. Apparently the majority of Americans want some sort of reasonable immigration policy, and reasonable treatment of “illegals.” The Minutemen mindset is apparently not so widespread as the Minutemen and the Rovian national Republican machine imagine. With any luck at all, this particular “hotbutton” will burn the bastards pushing it.
Jim (OJNTNJ)
December 11, 2007 at 12:51 pm
58John,
I’m not sure where you’re getting your “facts” but you may want to take your fact-checker to task.
The current population of Mexico is 108,700,891 (estimated) as of July 2007 (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/mx. html). Even using an extremely high-end estimate of 12,000,000 illegal immigrants doesn’t result in a shift of 1/5th (20%) of the “born-in-mexico” population to the United States.
Furthermore, Orange Couny is not using treated sewage as tap water. Instead, the treated sewage is pumped into the ground as a barrier to keep seawater from contaminating the freshwater table (see http://www.californiagreensolutions.com/cgi-bin/gt/tpl.h,content=1466) .
FYI, the Colbert Report is satire, and truthiness does not equate with truth.
John
December 11, 2007 at 4:20 pm
59Jim, I only ask one favor of you. If you decide to take me to task regarding my “facts,” just be correct. You’ll find it’s a real time saver.
If you’ll take the time to re-read the comment I made that you tried to “correct,” you may note that I didn’t say 1/5 of of the mexican population in the United States were illegal immigrants, yet you go on to “correct” me as if I had. A curious habit around here, as I’ve noted before.
Furthermore, Orange County is indeed using treated sewage as tap water. Some “facts” from the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/27/us/27conserve.html
FYI, I don’t tend to quote catch-phrases from my favorite comedy shows to underline my point. I just make my point, and move on. Saves time. ; )
John
December 11, 2007 at 4:30 pm
60David, I’m not going to bite on your approach of making illegal immigration a partisan issue. I think going that way is one of the reasons nothing reasonable gets done.
The “minuteman” mindset is probably one that developed amongst the people who live, and own property, along the border, and actually have to cope with the problem directly on a daily basis, and I can sympathize with their frustration.
As I’ve noted before, it’s very easy to take a “moral” stand when the problem is abstract to the moralizer.
Jim (OJNTNJ)
December 11, 2007 at 6:29 pm
61John,
From your own link to NYT, as well as the link I provided:
“The finished product, which district managers say exceeds drinking water standards, will not flow directly into kitchen and bathroom taps; state regulations forbid that.”
As to the immigrant issue, the 2000 census lists 16 million foreign born were from Latin America. 11.2 million of them were from Central America (including Mexico). Provided all of those respondents were born in Mexico, this would still only come to 10%. This data included both naturalized and non-U.S. citizens.
Link: http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-34.pdf
Since you referenced the 1/5 number directly after your opinion on securing the (southern) border, I assumed you were referring to illegal (Mexican) immigrants.
I stand corrected. Do you? If not, could you provide a citation for the 1/5th number?
Thanks
John
December 12, 2007 at 12:51 am
62Jim, I’m not sure if I’ll be standing corrected in this matter, since I see no evidence of being corrected.
My citation for the mexican population was from what amounts to the mexican census, not the american one. Since they seem to take pride in it, while our politicians don’t, I tend to give them more of a nod. I had a link to it, but it’s since been moved, it was in spanish. and I’m not going to dredge through that again. However a quick google brings this up from the San Diego Union-Tribune, which I’ll be so bold as to qualify as good enough for our purposes:
“The 20 million Mexicans in the United States generate a gross product that is slightly higher than the $600 billion generated by Mexicans in Mexico,” Fox said, adding that his country has the ninth-largest economy in the world.”
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20030924-2051-us-mexico.html
The other issue, regarding the New York Times article, I noticed you had omitted the paragraph following the one you’d cited here, which is:
“Instead it will be injected underground, with half of it helping to form a barrier against seawater intruding on groundwater sources and the other half gradually filtering into aquifers that supply 2.3 million people, about three-quarters of the county. The recycling project will produce much more potable water and at a higher quality than did the mid-1970s-era plant it replaces.”
Here’s another interesting article that is a little more specific:
http://www.ocregister.com/sciencetech/water-system-district-1931461-bi lodeau-treatment
That means that the sewage water, after further processing thru the aquifiers, will still be travelling to the taps. You stand corrected again, I’m afraid.
But in any case, the issue is, and remains, that California, and other states are running out of water. The current politics of using sewage water is irrelevant in the long term, since if California reaches an “emergency” stage of drought, city officials will be pumping the stuff right thru to the tap.
If you have a choice between treated sewage water, and no water, you’re likely to choose the latter.
btw, it takes a hell of a lot of electricity for this process. Al Gore is rolling his eyes.
My point remains that we shouldn’t be putting ourselves in the position to make this choice, simply because a few billionaires in Mexico would prefer that we do so.
Stephen
December 12, 2007 at 8:19 am
63Personally if I had the choice between treated sewage for drinking water or no water, I’d take the treated sewage. Death by de-hydration is not a route I would willingly take. I would be willing to bet you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.
Immigration is one of those issues with mulitple underlying issues. There is no quick and easy solution. I always wonder what makes us think a fence will work? Are we going to station guards along it every 10 feet 24/7? Walls can be climbed. Even the great wall of China didn’t really work.
Jim (OJNTNJ)
December 12, 2007 at 10:34 am
64John,
If you refer to my link to the World Factbook site maintained by the CIA, you will see that the population growth in Mexico is at +1.15% and the emigration rate is 4.08 persons per 1,000. This is hardly a shift of 1/5 of the population to the U.S.
Here’s a link to the official publication of Mexico’s National Institute of Statistics, Geography and Informatics which supports the information on the World Factbook site.
http://www.inegi.gob.mx/prod_serv/contenidos/espanol/bvinegi/productos /integracion/pais/mexvista/2005/Mexatg05.pdf
As to drinking purified waste water, we all do that. It’s a natural part of this biosphere we call earth. As stated by the interviewiee from my previous link, “The hydrologic cycle is a closed loop and every drop anyone has ever drunk may have once been dinosaur tinkle, so all our drinking water is “recycled wastewater.” By the way, the Orange County Water Co. has been doing this since the mid-seventies. The new plant that the article addresses simply converts more waste water and provides higher purity level.
I’m not sure how Mexican billionaires relate to potential drought situations. Are you predicting mass race wars if the drinkable water in California gets to apocalyptically low levels? I.e. Mexicans against everyone else?
Really?
john
December 12, 2007 at 4:42 pm
65Your stats are 7 years old, and not specific to my point.
You’re redrawing the argument regarding using sewage for water use in Orange County, since I had to correct you twice, to a side argument of “so what.”
In my mind, that is intellectually lazy at best, if not just incompetent, and/or lacking in integrity.
I’ve successfully made my points the way I want to make them, including my assessment of you so far, and I don’t feel inclined to carry on with any lectures.
Good luck.
Jim (OJNTNJ)
December 12, 2007 at 5:05 pm
66Wow,
Pot meet kettle.
John
December 13, 2007 at 3:05 pm
67Hardly.
One last thing, though… Bear Sterans found a clever way to qualify what’s difficult to qualify. They estimate higher than the border patrol’s estimate of around 15 million. Their methods of qualification seems like a better bet than our census. These estimates were made a couple of years ago, so…
http://www.firecoalition.com/docs/bear%20stearns%20study.pdf
Since you most probably discount the border patrol as a bunch of xenophobic lunatics, and feel bear stearns must be lying because they aren’t marxists, I apologize for this being the best I can do for you, Jim.
Take care.
SeattleDan
December 13, 2007 at 6:29 pm
68Jim, the jig is up. John has just realized that he has stumbled into a Marxist collective. Who tipped him off? Huh? We’ll find the rat and off to the re-education camp he/she will go.
Dave von Ebers
December 13, 2007 at 6:32 pm
69Uh, Dan, ix-nay on the e-education-ray amps-cay.
The walls have ears.
Jim (OJNTNJ)
December 14, 2007 at 9:22 am
70I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the communist party. Hell, I don’t even live in Hollywood or work for entertainment industry in any capacity.;-)
Jim (OJNTNJ)
December 14, 2007 at 12:10 pm
71Does a bear lie in the woods? Only if it’s a stearn bear.
Thank you, thank you, I’m here every Friday night.
John
December 14, 2007 at 1:33 pm
72Jim,
Thank you for providing convincing evidence on message 70 for your claim on message 69.
I’m glad that I’ve finally had an influence on you. : )
Ciao!
Jim (OJNTNJ)
December 15, 2007 at 6:55 pm
73Influence?
The following is a prime example of true influence.
A Brief History of the Origin of a Specific Scientific Methodology.
Copyright December 2007 by Acronym Jim. All Rights Reserved.
80,000 years ago, on the hill country slightly to the northwest of the Great Rift Valley, there lived a Troglodyte and nascent scientist named Urhhl. Urhhl was a diligent if not particularly bright nascent scientist. He also wasn’t particularly effective as an inventor. This he discovered to his dismay upon learning that an enterprising Bonobo already held the patent to his one working invention to date, the “grub stick.” However, greatness was soon conferred upon the hapless Urhhl when he became the first to devise a particular scientific methodology.
One day Urhhl was sitting in his cave tinkering with some rocks and sticks when he finally managed to swat and kill a mosquito that had been annoying him for the past two hours. Suddenly the very earth Urhhl was squatting upon began to violently tremble and shake. As Urhhl cowered in the dirt (indulging in his own personal violent shaking and trembling), the formerly polite and docile cave floor gave one final great heave and the roof over the entrance came crashing down, completely trapping the terrified Urhhl.
Being, as previously noted, a diligent if not particularly bright nascent scientist, Urhhl put the time it took him to dig himself out to good use by developing a new scientific methodology. Employing his new method, Urhhl strove to never swat at or kill any other biting or stinging insect, no matter how much they might vex him. As a seeming consequence, Urhhl never experienced another earthquake.
Unfortunately, Urhhl died a few months later from a parasitic infection he had picked up from a bedbug (known at that time as “Itches”). Amazingly the surviving echoes of Urhhl’s final conversation were recorded by an intrepid spelunker who was on an assignment to record mating calls of the Albino Tanganyikan Rat-Bat. A transcript of that conversation is presented here for the first time.
Blarg: Urhhl. Itch.
Urhhl: Blarg. hush.
Blarg: Urhhl…ITCH!
Urhhl: Blarg! HUSH!…..Ow!
Blarg: Mmph. snerk.
Urhhl: [….]
Blarg: […]
Urhhl: […]
Blarg: […]
Urhhl: Ack.
Blarg: mmm?
Urhhl: Ack, ack.
Blarg: Urhhl?
Urhhl: […]
Blarg: Urrrhhhllll?
Urhhl: […]
Blarg: Hmmph. Urhhl diligent nascent scientist, but not particularly bright.*
Blarg went on to become history’s first political pundit/epitaph composer. He ended up living a long and bemused life.
Due to Urhhl’s influence as well as the fact that the peer review process hadn’t yet been invented, Urhhl’s fellow Troglodytes continued to use his new scientific methodology and discovered that they could put it to use in varied and sundry situations with varying degrees of success and/or failure. As a result, use of the methodology spread faster than bedbug-induced parasitic infections.
Even though Urhhl’s methodology, now known as “jumping to conclusions”, has fallen out of favor with most present day professional scientists, it continues to enjoy widespread use among the lay population, as John has so deftly and prodigiously demonstrated. To this day Modern Troglodytes and their closely related brethren, Internet Trolls, remain the most prolific proponents and practitioners.
That, my friends, concludes Urhhl’s tale of discovery and woe as a result of jumping to conclusions.
Sleep tight…and don’t let the Itches bite.
*dialog format tm by Adam Felber: comedian, novelist, and under-paid oppressed television writer. Thanks for letting me borrow it.
Full disclosure, we are both currently being paid the same scale for work distributed via the Internet: diddly-squat.
SeattleDan
December 16, 2007 at 2:58 pm
74Great job, acronym Jim! Tammy and I were thoroughly entertained. But a bit saddened by Urhhl’s demise.
Jim (OJNTNJ)
December 17, 2007 at 12:31 pm
75Thanks SeattleDan and Tammy. Urhhl’s untimely demise was a classic demonstration of Darwin’s theory of natural selection.
John
December 20, 2007 at 9:35 am
76Now we know the writer’s strike is serious. Jim is producing blog reruns. Or it could be jim feels when one runs out of idea’s, one should use somebody else’s with confidence.
I don’t know… to me, it’s kind of like wearing someone else’s used underwear, but I’m multicultural, so I will try to reflect, rather than judge, your creative ways.
Honk honk! : )