From The New York Times:
White House Debate Rises on Iraq Pullback
White House officials fear that the last pillars of political support among Senate Republicans for President Bush’s Iraq strategy are collapsing around them, according to several administration officials and outsiders they are consulting. They say that inside the administration, debate is intensifying over whether Mr. Bush should try to prevent more defections by announcing his intention to begin a gradual withdrawal of American troops from the high-casualty neighborhoods of Baghdad and other cities….
From Reuters:
W.House denies debating troop withdrawal
WASHINGTON - President George W. Bush has no plans to withdraw troops from Iraq now, the White House said on Monday, despite increasing pressure from members of his own Republican party for a change in war strategy.
The New York Times reported on Monday that debate was intensifying inside the White House over whether Bush should try to prevent more Republican defections by announcing intentions for a gradual withdrawal of troops from high-casualty Iraqi areas.
“There is no debate right now on withdrawing forces right now from Iraq,” White House spokesman Tony Snow said…
Hmm. I guess the important question is this: In this time of war, should we be debating whether the White House is debating pulling out of Iraq? Should we even be discussing whether we should be debating that? Let’s talk about it.
Like a lot of people, I’d hope that somewhere within the White House, someone was debating whether or not we’d ought to pull out of Iraq, even with General Petraeus’ big Report not due until September 15. But should they be talking about the fact that they’re debating it? That’s debatable - we don’t want our enemy and our allies to think we’re thinking about pulling out.
Then again, the White House’s choice to say flat-out that they’re not debating it is a questionable strategy. It feels disingenuous at the very least, and if it’s actually true (which is debatable), well, then it’s terrifying. The idea that nobody in that White House is debating whether a pullout should be accelerated is implausible, which makes me wonder how much debate there was around telling Tony Snow to tell the press that there is no debate.
So now, with this Tony Snow statement, what does The New York Times do? Do they debate his dispute with the Times over whether or not there is a debate within the administration?
Because it all comes down to this: If the Iraqis see us as a nation debating whether the argument between Snow and the Times over whether or not there is debate within the administration over whether we’d ought to pull out of Iraq… does that weaken our allies or embolden our enemies? Should we even be talking about this? And does that question go too far?
The lines are open. Tell me whether they should be.





34 comments
tim
July 9, 2007 at 12:07 pm
1I think the most telling part of Snow’s non-denial denial is the strategic use of the phrase “right now”, not once but twice. I think any reasonable person would agree that it was highly unlikely that there was any debate going on in the White House right at that precise moment on immediately withdrawing troops. Especially if SportsCenter was on.
Landis
July 9, 2007 at 12:15 pm
2Adam, I beg to differ.
Sharon
July 9, 2007 at 12:24 pm
3It was a misunderstanding about a snippet of overheard conversation. They were talking about fishing, not rhetoric.
Ann
July 9, 2007 at 1:06 pm
4That’s just what they want us to think. You’re playing right into their hands. Their cold, slimy hands.
Julia
July 9, 2007 at 1:45 pm
5On the other hand, according to the BBC, “The head of US forces in Iraq, Lt Gen David Petraeus, has told the BBC that fighting the insurgency is a “long term endeavour” which could take decades. ”
Soon Snow will be saying “Not right now-right now, but maybe later-later…”
cooper
July 9, 2007 at 2:34 pm
6More kabuki theater out of DC - Gen David Petraeus is using the counter-insurgency manual written by… oh, yeah, David Petraeus. And Gen. Petraeus will be reporting back to Congress in Sept. about how well Petraeus’ strategy is working. How many think the General will be testifying before Congress that the Petraeus plan sucks, it’s just not working and we need to try something else?
gillian
July 9, 2007 at 2:41 pm
7Tick-tock.
Boomer
July 9, 2007 at 5:08 pm
8Three cheers for Michael Moore!!!
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/09/michael-moore-demands-apology -from-wolf-blitzer/
sharon
July 9, 2007 at 7:10 pm
9Another bogus analogy. Don’t these people know *any* history at all?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6285156.stm
First it was like Korea, now it’s like Northern Ireland? NO! A thousand times no!
This so-called war on so-called terror is a front for establishing a permanent occupation of a major source of fossil fuels for the exceptional U.S. of A. Gods forbid we should deny Halliburton et al even one dollar of their rightful profits for draining every last drop of our oil from under their sand. That’s why there’s no timetable, no plan to get out, and why W is digging in his heels. They never intended to leave Iraq. Never.
Bobarino
July 9, 2007 at 11:47 pm
10Another thing we shouldn’t be talking about is how incredibly fragile the situation is in Pakistan. But you didn’t hear it from me.
David
July 10, 2007 at 4:25 am
11There you go again, sharon, emboldening the enemy with simple, obvious (to people with their heads not up…uh, in…yeah, in the sand), realistic observations about why Bush refuses to budge on Cheney’s energy task force goals and directives for the new American century.
Besides, if we don’t have some American troops there (frightened Republicans figure we need just enough presence to justify continued unilateral intervention), how can the administration justify hiring a couple of hundred thousand private military contractors “in support of the troops and the stabilization of Iraq” at US taxpayer expense? Also, if we don’t have tripwire troops there, how on earth are we going to rationalize bombing Iran?
Oh, Lobster, do my questions add to this seditious debate? Patron Saint McCarthy forgive me.
Sharon
July 10, 2007 at 4:53 am
12What makes this op-ed extraordinary is that John S. Koppel is currently employed by the DoJ. He decided not to wait for retirement to speak up.
“Bush Justice is a National Disgrace”
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_6308408
waterfowler
July 10, 2007 at 2:28 pm
13How sad this would be for my grandfathers to read. We haven’t even begun to sacrifice what is required to win. Please tell me of one Dem. that has a plan to win. They don’t. They all plan & pray for failure. W. messed up when he didn’t obliterate Fallujah & Al’Sadr.
Boomer, any cheers for MM just makes you a sicko. I have to go puke.
Sharon, the “so-called war on terror” has kept your head on.
“G.W. - Saving your sorry asses, like it or not!”
Siobhan, the wren seem to be done building. Now they’re just hangin’ out & singing.?.?
dee
July 10, 2007 at 2:56 pm
14waterfowler — I would love to hear what your definition of “winning” is. I would love to hear what anyone in this administration’s definition of “winning” is. And if anyone says “a peaceful and secure Iraq” then I can guarantee you that an American military presence for the next fifty years isn’t going to bring that about. If you mean “the defeat of Al-Queda” then why did we go into Iraq when Al-Queda wasn’t there in the first place and our participation in this civil war has given them the perfect excuse to come in and stir up the hornet’s nest. If you mean “the end of terrorism” then good luck, because that ain’t gonna happen ever.
And if that doesn’t make any sense I blame the mojitos. I’m going back to the beach now. .
piglet
July 10, 2007 at 3:18 pm
15wf: Three cheers for MM!
Did I make you puke again?
Boomer
July 10, 2007 at 3:37 pm
16“Boomer, any cheers for MM just makes you a sicko. I have to go puke.” So waterfowler, you have to go puke? Does that make you a sicko, too?
By the way, this war is not being fought to keep terrorists from CUTTING YOUR HEAD OFF! It’s the oil. Thats why Bush wants to keep keep a force in Iraq, like in Korea - for 50 years - or until the oil runs out.
And speaking of oil, dee, don’t forget the sun screen and to turn over every thirty minutes. We all secretly hate you this week.
Ann
July 10, 2007 at 3:47 pm
17WF, the Dems don’t have to have a plan. When someone else wants to lead and he then fucks up royally, I don’t have to have a plan to clean up his mess. It’s not the Dems’ responsibility to clean up after Bush.
I don’t know you personally, but I just can’t imagine that if you made a complete and total botch of something that you shouldn’t have done in the first place, you’d turn to someone and say “Well, how would you fix it?”
Remember, the only thing we have to fear is fear its…OHMYGOD THEY WANT TO CUT YOUR HEAD OFF!
gillian
July 10, 2007 at 3:50 pm
18Well, my hard work for the week is over. I wonder if I should ask for a raise…
Ann
July 10, 2007 at 4:15 pm
19Gillian, that one’s brilliant! And a nice tie-in with Adam’s book.
Sharon
July 10, 2007 at 5:06 pm
20And here’s another example of what mindless irrational fear has reduced us to.
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/10/howto_smuggle_liquid.html
Sharon
July 10, 2007 at 5:12 pm
21Huh? I think that’s the first time one of my comments has been eaten.
What I wrote was, Here’s what irrational fear has reduced us to:
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/10/howto_smuggle_liquid.html
Just Jay
July 10, 2007 at 5:12 pm
22Waterfowler,
I agree with you about sacrifice, but I consider it one of the worst bits of the Iraq fiasco. In his effort to sell the war, Bush made it seem the ultimate boomer fantasy. We, like the greatest generation, would get to liberate a nation from tyranny but we wouldn’t have to fight, wouldn’t have to sacrifice, hell we wouldn’t even have to pay for the damn thing. All of the glory, none of the work, and our grandkids pay the Chinese for the next hundred years. Bush made going to war easy when going to war should be hard. Going to war should create pain for the whole nation, not just the few who fight and die. If I were the Democrats in Congress, instead of meaningless time tables in war funding legislation I would send Bush a war funding bill that requires no borrowing at all. It would start by rolling back every tax cut he implemented since 2001, and then start increasing taxes from the richest to the poorest. Only then would the true cost of this horror be shared equally.
(Climbing down from my soapbox and skulking off to the Lurker’s Lounge. Any of that Portland bourbon left?)
Jay
Vinnie
July 10, 2007 at 5:41 pm
23Yo! dee! Ya need some protection dis week? Special vacation rates for natives of Michigan.
Jack
July 10, 2007 at 5:50 pm
24I’d forgotten how much fun this guy is - http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/10/countdowns-worst-person-in-th e-world/
cooper
July 10, 2007 at 6:25 pm
25Well, I just e-mailed my two senators and my representative in the House to bring the troops home and stop the foolishness in Iraq. Talk about foolishness, that gesture was probably a grand waste of time. Maybe I’ll sleep better tonight…Nah, it was a waste of time.
Pope Benny 16
July 10, 2007 at 7:09 pm
26Okay, I’ve really got to give Cardinal Bernie the boot. Without my knowledge or approval, he convinced the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to issue a statement declaring that Christian denominations outside Roman Catholicism are not full churches of Jesus Christ and are suffering from a “wound”, since they do not recognize the primacy of Pope. Well, that was ok as far as it went, but Bernie also wanted me to proclaim that all non-Catholic denominations were “gutter religions”. Maybe I can get Brother Guido to “accidentally” drop the Popemobile on him during the next Papal oil change.
Bits
July 10, 2007 at 8:45 pm
27Cooper: I wrote actual letters to my senators & representative — probably a grand waste of time AND three perfectly good stamps. But it’s at least slightly better than sitting here like bumps on a log as the world goes to hell. Isn’t it?
cooper
July 11, 2007 at 3:19 am
28Hi, Bits. Yes, of course it’s better. My suspicion though, is that some twenty-something true believer interns working in these Republicans’ offices will skim over my effort and delete it or put it in the wacko bin to save the boss some additional stress from the electorate.
waterfowler
July 11, 2007 at 3:55 am
29Mr. Cooper, I hope you’ll also e-mail them & tell them to enforce our borders. What happened to the $4.2B in “emergency” border funding that was part of the immigration bill. Since it failed, I guess it’s no longer an “emergency”.
Dale
July 11, 2007 at 4:49 am
30Grrrrrr….(bares teeth in Waterfowler´s direction. Foams at mouth. Becomes too irrational to engage in futile argument. Is too hot to bother trying. Goes back to bed.)
Sharon
July 11, 2007 at 5:39 am
31More fearmongering from Michael Chertoff, whose “gut feeling” (or is it his inner child) is telling him that we are “vulnerable” to another attack this summer. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought it was part of his job to make sure that we are *not* so vulnerable? This “warning” couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the way the Repub candidates are tanking, could it?
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/10/chertoff-should-be-fired/
tim
July 11, 2007 at 6:44 am
32Since immigration was brought up, I’m curious as to why almost nobody in the Commentariat (not this one, necessarily, but the Commentariat as a whole) has brought up the real reason why immigration reform failed, which is: Republicans desire the status quo on immigration above all else.
First off, they and their backers get to continue to exploit all the cheap labor streaming in from Mexico and Central America, and keeping that cheap labor illegal all but guarantees that they won’t join or form unions.
Secondly, if the illegals remain illegal, they can’t vote, which means they can’t vote Democrat, which is what they are more likely to do. Imagine what a blue Texas, New Mexico and Arizona would do to Rudy Giuliani’s presidential hopes.
Thirdly, Republicans continue to get to pontificate about how we should spend billions to beef up border security without actually passing any legislation to do it. They had six years. Where are the bills? Oh, that’s right, tax cuts and the Iraq adventure were higher priorities. But border security still sounds good in sound bites! Or, you know, we can build a ridiculous wall that anyone with half a brain could get around, and carve out a hundred billion to give to Bechtel, Halliburton, the Carlyle Group, etc. for wall construction (with another hundred billion or so for “cost overruns”). Plus, now the Dems are in charge, so it’s all their fault!
The flip side of this is that the Democrats want reform so as to attract a huge pool of formerly illegal aliens to unions and to the party in general which would improve their chances of getting more voting support in the Southwest and in other parts of the country. In addition, they want to avoid having to spend billions in border security so they can do something else with the money, which if you’re cynical like me, probably won’t end up being lower-cost health care or better schools or anything else desirable.
It’s a struggle of wills between the two parties of a fundamental nature, and with the country being almost evenly divided, getting anything of this magnitude through a cloture vote in the Senate is nearly impossible. So, I hope you like the status quo on immigration, because it’s here to stay. Just like the illegals.
Sharon
July 11, 2007 at 7:56 am
33More thoughts on marketing fear…
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2007/06/marketing-fear.html
I stopped cable service in mid-2001, and so did not have to watch endless loops of 9/11 and its aftermath like most of the rest of the country did. I read the papers and the Web and saw the photos, so it’s not as if I’m uninformed about the events of that day and subsequent events. But I don’t suffer from the same terrors that some people seem to. I don’t think that terrorists are lurking around my neighborhood, waiting for their chance to grab me AND CUT OFF MY HEAD. I drive 40 miles to work on the interstate, and statistically my chances of getting killed are worse in my car than they are in, say, visiting New York City (which I have done since 9/11 and will continue to do).
Fear sells, no doubt about it. But I ain’t buying.
Tim, what you said–best summary I’ve read yet.
David
July 12, 2007 at 1:32 pm
34Believe it or not, the letters do get their attention, and they multiply the number of letters by an assumed factor of likely similar sentiments. And it makes them nervous. That’s why the reactionary noise machine loves to flood them with e-mails, and why all political action groups urge people to send e-mails. The most effective is a handwritten letter mailed to one of the home offices, best I can tell. I personally suspect the potential impact on a young staffer, preferably an idealistic one, who still has the capacity for cognitive dissonance might be the greatest value. But have no doubt letters and e-mails matter, and the more personal the better. And I think all the people who contacted Walter Jones with letters of support when he broke with the Dark Side meant more to him than we know.