I don’t have any reaction to the shootings at Virginia Tech yet, other than to say that it’s a horrible, horrible thing. Which you already knew, I’m guessing.
But I thought you all might want to discuss it, and perhaps on a thread that doesn’t involve a wacky screaming imitation German…
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34 comments
cooper
April 16, 2007 at 2:39 pm
1I’m certainly glad that, at this particularly sorrowful and shameful moment in our country’s history, that at least Mr. Bush has his priorities in order -
“The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed” - Dana Perino, White House spokeswoman, about President Bush’s response to the slaughter of students by a gunman at Virginia Tech today.
piglet
April 16, 2007 at 3:20 pm
2Wasn’t it Chris Rock who suggested that we forget about gun control and just impose a tax of $4,000 per bullet? I think that’s a brilliant idea. The revenue can go to fund a national health care system that works.
Ann
April 16, 2007 at 3:35 pm
3Fond as I am of you, Cooper, I’d hate to see this event used as an excuse to attack Bush, the NRA, or the Second Amendment. And I’ve no doubt our own Waterfowler will rush to the defense of all three, if that happens. At this point, it’s simply an unexplained tragedy.
I am disgusted with the rush to obtain first-person accounts of the event. MSNBC has “Student Trey Perkins describes being in a classroom where many students were shot,” and even “Soph. Derek O’Dell describes being shot.”
How is that news?? What kind of people want to read those stories? Why do the victims/witnesses succumb to the glamor of “being interviewed”? (fade out on old-coot-like grumbling noises…)
Dale
April 16, 2007 at 3:52 pm
4Oh Ann, the marriage thing didn´t work out, but we would have made such a wonderful pair of old grumbling coots together. (In Spain these ladies are an institution, they sit on park benches with their requisite small dogs–don´t worry, I already have one–and are permitted to grumble to their heart´s content.)
cooper
April 16, 2007 at 4:27 pm
5Ann, this is indeed a tragic incident and stupid beyond imagination. All of those lives pointlessly ruined and wasted. My son goes away to college next year and, believe me, I do not take this sort of thing lightly. But I was absolutely astounded to hear his spokesperson trot out that response on NPR this afternoon. I’m pretty sure that’s not what Bush said anyway. This was the thoroughly massaged, re-worked, focus-grouped, burnished and spit-shined version of what he actually said, and it still came out as the clueless and inappropriate dreck that we’ve come to expect. I was just standing out of the way and letting Bush step on his own tongue. We need leaders in times of national tragedy to somehow help us come to grips with the enormity of it all. Reagan did that for us after Challenger broke-up. At this moment, the country, and the world, needs better people leading America than we currently have.
Nick
April 16, 2007 at 4:27 pm
6piglet: Actually, it was the late, great Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, in 1993 among other occasions:
http://tinyurl.com/2h5wos
I often get him confused with Chris Rock as well.;)
siobhan
April 16, 2007 at 4:47 pm
7I’m sitting in a public library, about to start one of the semi-regular meetings I have with the author of a book I’m illustrating. I’m surrounded by kids working with their tutors, and a couple of adults using the public computers. Not quite a school setting, but still that kind of vibe… learning energy. Everyone here is bettering themselves, in ways big and small. To think of random, violent death inserting itself into such a place… ugh. Words fail. I have some political thoughts, but they need not show up here.
I can only send my hopes for solace and strength to all the families and friends.
David
April 16, 2007 at 5:40 pm
8I am not yet able to absorb what happened, and I cannot stomach the nature of tv coverage of such a tragedy. I certainly cannot bear the turning of private anguish into cheapened public spectacle. Where is the Walter Cronkite who can speak to us of these things in ways universally befitting what has happened?
Ann/Dale,
Can we be a park bench threesome? I still cherish the prospect of having been best person.
cooper,
I do understand why you could not not write what you did. Bush’s statement is exactly what you called it. Sadly, I do suspect that he personally feels something that official statement completely misses. He is a prisoner of his politics.
Rebecca
April 16, 2007 at 6:12 pm
9This is just horrible. I remember how terrifying it felt to be in a lockdown back when a police officer was shot on my campus in 2005, but to have fellow students gunned down? I can’t even imagine.
I still have friends in college - what if it had happened at my alma mater? What if I lost good friends that I haven’t seen in a year? My heart just hurts thinking about it.
I’m staying away from the media, and I hope that the media stays away from all the students, faculty, and families. Grief is not something so easily handled on a personal and individual level, nor is it so easily shared with others. Unfortunately respect such as that seems to be lacking in our society anymore.
Rebecca
April 16, 2007 at 6:19 pm
10*sigh* I meant 2004. And because I have friends who write for our online publication, here’s a better story link. I really hate to draw attention away from the story at hand, but I feel as though I should give older matters proper mention.
cooper, I understand your need to write what you wrote. Sometimes I wish that everybody could just forget partisanship for a few moments and be human and have human reactions.
Ann/Dale/David, if you three become grumbling curmudgeons on a park bench, there better be a picture, and it better be linked somewhere.
I think I’m going to stop talking/writing/thinking now. Sorry to write a litany on an open thread where everyone else writes much more eloquently than I do.
It's Pat!
April 16, 2007 at 6:41 pm
11I met a woman tonight who has a grand daughter going to VA Tech. She found out late this afternoon that she is OK. This woman also had very strong ties to the college, so she probably knows someone who was killed by this insane person. Seeing this woman visibly in pieces, but somehow keep it together, and lead the group that was meeting in a very heartfelt prayer really connected me to this tragedy, and the families of those struck down. I don’t have any more thoughts on this except that we all need to take a little time to think of the victims and their families. They need our love right now.
SeattleDan
April 16, 2007 at 6:45 pm
12Well, fuck, I agree with everyone (and Rebecca, don’t worry, you are quite eloquent). It is too early to start casting blame. We have no idea why this tragedy happened. But it is an odd time for the White House to defend it’s particular interpretation of the Second Amendment. Did the WH defend it postion during the Beltway Sniper episode? Another sad day for us and our country.
hedera
April 16, 2007 at 8:15 pm
13Personally, I plan to develop into a fully-formed curmudgeon; grumbling coot-hood seems a lesser goal. Still, if there’s room for four on the park bench (one of whom does not have a small dog - allergies, you know)….
On one level, though, and much as he appalls me and I disagree with him, Pres. Dubya was right. Laws must be followed. If only his administration took that advice.
And the mention of the second amendment was entirely appropriate: we have these tragedies - and Columbine, and those kids in Missouri, and the Beltway Sniper, and 101 California, and every other idiot going crazy with a gun - because we DO insist that every idiot has the right to have a gun. And as long as we insist on the right to keep and bear arms, and make NO reference to any related responsibilities, we will continue to have these appalling events. There’s a direct connection there which we need to continue to hammer on.
But I do like the suggestion of a $4,000 per bullet tax.
siobhan
April 16, 2007 at 8:31 pm
14The good thing about hanging out on the bench is that at least it means that we won’t be curled in the fetal position in the corner. Might need to take up a collection for a second bench at this point.
SeattleDan
April 16, 2007 at 8:36 pm
15Or a third bench, for the fat asses Tammy and I have. We’ll be there. Just let us know.
piglet
April 16, 2007 at 8:56 pm
16You mean Chris Rock gets his best material from Daniel Patrick Moynihan??
SpottedDog
April 16, 2007 at 10:13 pm
17I have to admit that because I had and still am having a strong reaction to the shootings I am reading and watching everything I can including the interviews with the students. I find that there is some value there. I see a human being having a visceral reaction. Seeing these types of interviews helps me to imagine what it might have been like to have been there, what the witness is feeling having been through it, what the perpetrator might have seen and felt, what I might have seen and felt. It helps me to get a picture of the situation which seems closer to the event than the picture I might get if it were described by a newsanchor or reporter. And the point, again, for me, is to try to understand what happened. (I should say, also, that I am not watching any tv coverage which is likely more saturated with witness interviews and presenting them with flashy graphics and music.)
I am most astounded by the number of people killed and the number wounded. That the person was able to kill and wound so many in such a short time is frightening. I don’t need to say that this person was cold, but the degree of the coldness, the intensity of the act maintained over a 25 minute period, acting alone and at close range… That someone could do this and do it in such a setting…
I recently read a book by the Japanese author Murakami about the Tokyo subway sarin gas poisoning in the nineties in which he spends a significant portion reflecting upon what it might mean that such a plot was able to take root, find nourishment, and mature in Japanese society. Is anyone familiar with a similar examination of incidents like today’s in the United States? I would be interested…
I dated a woman recently who seemed remarkable to me because she was strong and had a deeply felt caring attitude towards people. It is disturbing that it is so rare, at least in my life. I admit that though I like to believe that I have the same caring attitude somewhere within, I don’t express it enough, if at all.
SeattleTammy
April 16, 2007 at 10:23 pm
18Spotted:
I had much the same reaction to the Capitol Hill shooting here a year ago. They were the rave kids and believed in PLUR, Peace Love Understanding Respect. I finally went and took them some costco foodstuff. There’s no way to understand this– find a way to feel you have contributed. Even if you just go talk to someone. making the human contact is what we are here for.
my heart is hurting for the moms and dads tonight. I can’t imagine.
siobhan
April 17, 2007 at 3:34 am
19I have to say that this is another time that I’m really glad I don’t have a TV.
jerry-the-conservatroll
April 17, 2007 at 7:27 am
20This is indeed a shocking event. I must say I have been impressed with the two or three interviews I saw of Va Tech students. They were thoughtful, logical and without speculation. The student government and student press are handling this with dignity and better than some of their “real-world” counterparts.
Cooper - I think the quote of Dana Perino about administration policy was only issued in direct response to a question about policy.
Julia
April 17, 2007 at 2:08 pm
21I’d love a chance to curl up in a fetal position underneath one of those benches, if there’s room.
I have to admit I’m staying away from most of the coverage. At some point I’ll have to catch up but I prefer it to be after something is actually known. Upon hearing my much-mourned npr-that-was go in-depth on reporting of theories this morning, I nearly yanked the knob off the dashboard.
Still, it’s impossible not to think about it.
Yep. Right here under the bench; I’ll just put this newspaper over the doggie doo. I’ll come out in a few days…I think.
cooper
April 17, 2007 at 5:56 pm
22Jerry, you’re correct about the quote being presented out of context on NPR. That statement was given in response to a question about what changes the White House thinks need to be done, in light of the Virginia Tech tragedy, as it relates to gun issues. Apparently the President believes that if the laws on the books are followed, then everything about America’s gun policy is just about right.
Keith Olbermann pointed out tonight that, over the last 10 days in Iraq, 30 young Americans - about the same ages as those killed at Virginia Tech - have also died, but that the American public has become calloused to the military deaths there, partly because we don’t see the bodies and partly because we don’t hear stories about the soldiers’ laudable character, their good deeds or their hopes for the future being blunted. These are indeed sad times.
piglet
April 17, 2007 at 6:02 pm
23Amen, cooper.
Fran
April 17, 2007 at 6:20 pm
24I was thinking about that very thing, cooper, about how we are now indifferent to the deaths in Iraq. I know that some will say that it doesn’t matter as much because they are soldiers and therefore have deliberately put themselves in harm’s way, but I can’t, I just CAN’T see that as a rationale for not mourning their deaths just as deeply as these kids’ deaths.
My partner’s son, my step-son, is contemplating joining the service when he graduates from high school, and I just can’t wrap my mind around the idea that if he dies over in Iraq, it’ll be a “noble sacrifice”, but if he’s killed at Green River Community College, it’d be a tragedy. We’d have lost a brilliant light in our lives either way, and it’s all tragic to me.
Dale
April 17, 2007 at 6:23 pm
25Cooper–and what about all the Iraqi civilians–also many young people–who are killed in suicide attacks every day?
I in no way mean to minimize the horror of the VA shooting, or to suggest that it isn´t worthy of media coverage. I guess it is human nature to feel things more the closer they are to home.
waterfowler
April 17, 2007 at 8:01 pm
26…a time to mourn…Ecc.3
SpottedDog
April 17, 2007 at 8:19 pm
27Though death is death, the setting can certainly have a profound effect on the reaction to and perception of death. A massacre in a classroom is a much more shocking image to me than that of soldiers being killed in a war zone. I do not accept the implication that I should react to each in the same way.
To put it simply there is no expectation of death in the student setting whereas soldiers are intimately involved with death.
The death of a soldier may imply glory, vengeance, duty, and sacrifice and may be perceived as a fitting and honorable end. The death of a student implies a lost future and would most often seem odd if described in the same way as the death of a soldier.
Stripped of their roles each is in fact a person which may be what Cooper and others are getting at. I don’t think that reacting to the setting, to the role each person has chosen, and to the presence of death in the particular setting and upon the particular role is ignorant or in any way lacking in perception as seems to be implied.
SpottedDog
April 17, 2007 at 9:05 pm
28Implied ignorance? Implied lack of perception?
I think I’m overreacting. I must be upset. Time for a glass and a good book.
gillian
April 18, 2007 at 2:29 am
29Not the best time for comix, but…
Harold
April 18, 2007 at 8:09 am
30I found that I was pretty numb about this whole thing until the identity of the gunman was revealed. Then I just started to feel anger, outrage, and a host of other emotions.
I remember back in 1989 when I had begun my brief foray into graduate school there was an incident at a university in Canada where a guy rounded up and murdered a bunch of female engineering students. Seven of them, I think. My reaction was much more immediate and visceral then than it is now. Maybe I’ve become numb to mass deaths. Or maybe 32 in one place, one at a time, is too much death for me to wrap my head around.
I immediately recalled the organized rallies of Virginia gun-shop owners just a few weeks ago protesting New York’s anti-gun-sales efforts (specifically, New York felons are getting their hands on guns bought in states like Virginia that have lax background checks and no waiting period). But the details of this shooter suggest that that discussion may not be relevant in this case. This kid was disturbed, probably insane - but is there a system anywhere that checks to see if you’re a sociopath before you can buy a gun?
Meanwhile, my friends from other countries are increasingly convinced that Americans are all insane gun-toting maniacs, and if they ever were to visit here they would be killed in a crossfire. Stuff like this doesn’t help to convine them otherwise.
David
April 21, 2007 at 3:51 pm
31I’m going to try to get a link posted, but meanwhile go to the Orlando Sentinel for Saturday, April 21 and read the “My Word” commentary on the editorial pages (page A19) by Jerome Donnelly, a retired UCF English professor entitled “Ishmael with an Automatic.”
David
April 21, 2007 at 3:58 pm
32http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-myword21b07apr21,0,213 976.story
hedera
April 22, 2007 at 7:36 pm
33Harold, as a matter of fact, there are systems that check to see if you are off the rails before allowing you to buy a gun. In fact, Virginia has such a system. What Virginia does not have is universal adherence to the idea that the mental health weenies should pass on the diagnosis of “a danger to himself and others” to the guys that maintain the background check database… as they did not, in the case of the late lamented Cho.
And yes, I think he should be lamented; it is lamentable that he got to this state and nobody noticed, nobody intervened. “Any man’s death diminshes me”; and what with the way things go these days, I feel pretty small sometimes.
David
April 24, 2007 at 6:08 am
34Gotta agree with you, hedera. We as Americans have experienced a diminishing since the 2001 inaugural greater than anything I can remember, and my youthful adulthood spanned the Viet Nam War.
Actually, the last time I can remember the opposite was the feeling associated with the call to what America could be that we heard when JFK was president and the actualities of the end of apartheid in the South(signigicant actual credit goes to LBJ and a lot of unsung Southerners), bloody as that was. What in hell have we been about since those days of at least imagining a better world based on knowledge, real humanity, and science/reason-driven policies? And no, I do not view that period through rose-colored glasses, because I was too involved in the battles against the ugly realities to pretend it was all goodness and joy. But how and why in hell we as a nation committed ourselves to such a downward spiral baffles me.
One tragic flaw that has always bothered me is the glorification of war and our war machine. We do not seem to be able to remember what war really is, and this administration has made sure we as a society don’t really look at the reality. Only thing they can’t cover up is that we lost in Iraq. Had we “won,” Bush would be enjoying hero status. We are entirely too much in love with military prowess and “winning” wars, just as we are entirely too much in love with guns - and I do support responsible, sane gun ownership and use.