KABUL (Reuters) - Growing international pressure on Afghanistan to respect the religious freedom of a Christian convert was met in Afghanistan on Friday by a clamor of calls for the man to be executed for denying Islam…
…But President Hamid Karzai cannot ignore the views of conservative proponents of Islamic law or appear to bow too readily to outside pressure.
A group of several hundred people, including a former prime minister and religious and former faction leaders, met in Kabul and urged that Rahman be tried under Islamic law, and threatened trouble if the government caved in to Western pressure.
Rahman was detained last week for converting to Christianity and could face the death penalty if he refuses to become a Muslim again, judicial officials say.
Death is the punishment stipulated by sharia, or Islamic law, for apostasy. The Afghan legal system is based on a mix of civil and sharia law.
The case has sparked an outcry in North America and Europe but that appeared only to harden positions in Afghanistan.
Sometimes a single event can wallop you with so many levels of irony that as a satirist you merely have to stand back and tip your hat the real master, Reality.
It helps to remember that Afghanistan was “the easy one,” the nation that required comparatively few of our resources to reform into a functional democracy. It’s also somewhat rich that the current kristian krisis in Afghanistan is the result of the policies of our born again president. I’m sure that this is not an irony that he’s enjoying at the moment, but it’s there.
But mostly I’m interested in our government’s inability to say “Don’t you dare,” in this case. Instead, we’re “deeply troubled.” Because we just redecorated Afghanistan, see, and we’re sort of technically still occupying it. So we can’t actually invade it, per se. Nor does it make too much sense to speak out too angrily about the government that we helped them create only a couple of years ago. So if this man is actually executed for converting to Christianity, we’re not really in a position to do anything but look at Afghanistan and say, “Boy, we really fucked that one up!”
Saying that might not be such a bad idea. At the very least it’d be good practice…
Fanny Roborat
36 comments
Siobhan
March 24, 2006 at 5:58 pm
1I’ve been listening to/reading this story for a few days, and … it’s hard to come up with coherent thoughts about it. Just an unresolved jumble.
It’s kinda pathetic that the one possible option for saving this guy’s life that I heard about is a) declaring him mentally incompetent, then b) having him renounce Christianity.
Will this result in the Christian equivalent of cartoon riots?
Can Bush (or Rove) offer Karzai advice on keeping the base happy without actually delivering on the most extreme demands?
Can Karzai’s situation enlighten Bush (or Rove) on the dangers of letting religious extremists have too much power?
Will Bush’s last rock solid supporters finally start wondering if he knows where we’re headed with this adventure?
WTF?
dave
March 24, 2006 at 6:06 pm
2I guess there’s no chance the guy will just convert back to Islam to save the US the embarassment of his being stoned to death? Rats.
I can’t help but think this story is actually welcome in the WH, fanning the flames of indescriminate hatred toward muslims at just the right time.
And anyway, other than this instance, Afghanistan is going great. Just great.
Worst. Liberated country. Ever.
Ann
March 24, 2006 at 6:38 pm
3And even if he isn’t executed, Lobster willing, the fact that this situation has even arisen means that we have actually already fucked that one up.
Sharon
March 24, 2006 at 6:56 pm
4We did already fuck this one up, but why is that only just now news? We were lied to about Iraq, so why does everyone assume that we got the truth about Afghanistan, either before that invasion or today?
Maximum Bob
March 24, 2006 at 7:44 pm
5So is the Bush Administration “deeply troubled” over putting someone to death for apostasy because it’s wrong, or because they didn’t think of it first?
Mary O
March 24, 2006 at 8:30 pm
6This incident highlights one of the major problems with dealing with law in Islamic countries. The Koran is full of exhortations to Muslims to kill heretics (those who do not follow Islam). There are places were nominal freedom is given to “brothers of the book” - Christians and Jews - but conversion to one of these faiths is punishable by death. This is NOT just a problem of exremists.
Though is very true that the US has made mistakes in Afganistan and needs to stand on firmer ground with regard to human rights around the globe, this incident hits at the heart of how the West will need to deal with Islamic countries. I am convinced that unless Islamic countries undergo ‘reformations,’ which seems unlikely, the problems created by the clash of sharia law and civil rights will continue.
Murray
March 24, 2006 at 9:13 pm
7Of course the other countries that we support have this same law. Take Saudi Arabia. My son-in-law who converted to Lutheranism could have been put to death had he returned to Saudi prior to becoming an American citizen. That wouldn’t have made headline news. This case does because, hell, we put that government in place, and damnit when we install democracy we expect results.
piglet
March 24, 2006 at 10:43 pm
8So, the lesson here is that it’s wrong to make and enforce laws based on one particular group’s religious views, right?
Wow, that is kind of ironic.
You say that Bushy is probably not “enjoying” the full irony of the situation, but I wonder if he is indeed fully aware of it.
SeattleDan
March 24, 2006 at 10:52 pm
9I’d think someone would need to explain to him the concept of “irony” first. On a lighter note, I heard today that Bush is the first President to use the word “blog”. Also wanted to note that we were able to meet Jay,one of the regular contributors here, who was in Seattle from Olympia for work.Like Ann, he is certainly a very nice person,with an impeccable taste in books.
cooper
March 25, 2006 at 12:09 am
10Completely off topic - Anyone interested in hearing a Firesign Theatre (minus Phil Austin) performance on the BBC may direct their browser to: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainframe.shtml?http://www.bbc.co.uk/ra dio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?radio4/markthomasp
Okay, back to your meaningful discussion…
siobhan
March 25, 2006 at 12:24 am
11Coop, “An error occured while processing this directive”.
a) Gawd, I love the Brits.
b) Alternate route?
c) If it had been “… whilst processing this directive” I’d have been beside myself.
hedera
March 25, 2006 at 1:37 am
12From what I’ve been reading about this, it wouldn’t matter if the Afghan courts were to let him off. As soon as they turned him loose, the mob would tear him apart. Frankly, we’re about to watch the creation of a new Christian martyr; and I don’t think there’s a thing we can do about it.
Mary O is dead right about sharia law: there is no such thing as religious freedom in an Islamic country under sharia. Just as there was no such thing as religious freedom in medieval Europe; there is no religious freedom where you can die because you disagree with the majority religion.
This, people, is one of the reasons the original immigrants came to America. And this is the reason why the First Amendment states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. This is EXACTLY why. And until the people of Islam stop thinking that it’s necessary to kill people who don’t follow their religion, we will never persuade them to follow what we call democracy.
ice weasel
March 25, 2006 at 2:03 am
13Oh cooper, you’re beautiful. Another great Firesign routine in the weasel library.
SeattleDan
March 25, 2006 at 2:23 am
14In the West, we are the heirs of the Enlightenment,and Deistic thought,sceptical,belivers in Science.As hedera points out the founding fathers,none of them fundamentalist Christians,none of whom believed in Biblical inerrancy, separated Church from State(which,even today,is not the case in the UK even). As Liberal as Islamic thought was in the Middle Ages, and Lord knows they kept thought alive in many ways by translating the Greek and Roman classics and science,such as it was alive, somehow have missed out on that thought.That is probably the result of suspicion of the West and Western intent for the past 200 years.And especially since the end of WWI.
We are about to commit the next centuries to the Relgious fantatics. No evolution taught.Women sentenced to second-hand status.People persecuted for free thought and choice.It’s very scary. And I’m worried about the world my son is going to inheirt.
cooper
March 25, 2006 at 8:30 am
15Siobhan, sorry this link should work better.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?radio4/markthomasprese nts
and remember - “Happy motoring on the freeway of your choice, which is already in progress!”
siobhan
March 25, 2006 at 11:13 am
16Coop - thanks, the new link works. I’ll give it a spin a little later today. And the non-functional link was beneficial anyway; led me to a few other fun shows. Really, no one can talk gardening quite like the British.
I need things like Firesign and British gardening shows to recover from the news these days.
cooper
March 25, 2006 at 12:02 pm
17siobhan, glad to help. The Brits have the right sort of eccentricity that dove tails nicely into horticulture, don’t you think? The Firesign Theatre e-mails me program alerts from time to time. If you’re interested - http://www.firesigntheatre.com/
Pete IVDL
March 25, 2006 at 9:06 pm
18So, is extremism/fundamentalism allowing a believer in another faith to live, breathe, buy falafel from your shop, but if they change their religion, they’re consigned the the ninth circle of Dis?
So if we expect the Mainstream Muslims to follow their faith truly and completely, they must discombobulate the dude who changed his mind. But we would “prefer” that they ignore an important tenet/distinction in the core of their beleifs to make Western commentators happy? And how exactly has Bushy done that in the US? So it’s OK for us to expect them to do things that we wouldn’t even ask our Kristian Kreepies to do?
I’m with you Siobhan, this is confusticating in so many ways.
Pete IVDL
March 25, 2006 at 9:07 pm
19Cool, Coop. Ta, mate!
siobhan
March 26, 2006 at 12:25 am
20BTW, his name is Abdul Rahman. Given his situation, might as well call him something better than “the guy”.
Doug
March 26, 2006 at 11:09 am
21We in the U.S. shouldn’t get too comfortable with the idea that sharia is just a problem of Afghanistan, or just a problem of Islam. We are not invulnerable to the insertion of religious fundamentalism into our own government.
The Christian Reconstructionist agenda is actively being pursued in the U.S. AT THIS VERY MOMENT. Their goal is the implementation of their own Christian version of sharia law in the United States.
The Discovery Institute, financed and guided by millionaire Christian Reconstructionist Howard Ahmanson, Jr, is actively conducting its wedge strategy campaign to defeat science, as a first step in implementing Christian sharia and institutionalizing religious intolerance.
Every time you hear about a school board being beseiged by “Intelligent Design” proponents, you should hear the faint echoes of Kristallnacht. That’s what the Discovery Institute sounds like.
Whenever you see state legislation being introduced to teach the “controversy” over evolution, you should watch for a mob standing ready to implement the penalty of stoning. That’s what the Discovery Institute looks like.
That smell? Burning witches.
Ann
March 26, 2006 at 7:57 pm
22You’ve got to love the solution that is being unofficially pursued in Abdul Rahman’s case (thanks, Siobhan): They’re trying to get him declared insane. It’s a neat trick, but it sets a hell of a precedent!
Just have to add here, “An error occurred while (doing anything)” is a grammatical infelicity—a glaring mistake, actually. Fixing that kind of message is part of my job at Microsquish.
siobhan
March 26, 2006 at 8:27 pm
23ok… I give. How should it read? (BTW, they spelled occurred correctly; mine was a typo.)
David RabidGator
March 26, 2006 at 9:21 pm
24Doug,
You got it. Christian sharia is the correct nomenclature. All self-righteous religious fundamentalism is an enemy of humankind, some manifestations simply more deadly than others. And it’s for damned sure that Christian fundamentalism is no more exempt from brutal extremism than any other fundamentalism. One thing Jesus clearly was not was a fundamentalist of any stripe. He was a liberal, non-sectarian humanist who portrayed his concept of god as a liberal humanist, not a brutal extremist, once you get down to what he was apparently saying and championing (we are, of course, at the mercy of whoever passed down the record).
Meanwhile, what about my Gators? It’s great to be a Swamp Creature.
nigel
March 26, 2006 at 9:21 pm
25http://www.freemuslims.org/document.php?id=41
An interesting commentary on “Sharia law” and the Qura’an.
tess
March 26, 2006 at 11:46 pm
26Y’know, I had my doubts as to how well Afghanistan was really doing when I started hearing reports about girls undergoing random gynecological exams to determine if they were still virgins. This, about 3 years ago, long after we invaded and gave all those lovely perks to the warlords we sided with. Now someone tell me how the _anyone_ really thought that a country where I can be yanked off the streets and tested for hymen has really improved since the Taliban went underground? How many of us were actually surprised by Rahman’s death sentence? C’mon people, raise those hands!
Ann
March 27, 2006 at 3:10 am
27Siobhan, in the sentence “The man tripped while walking down the stairs,” “the man” is the subject—he does both the tripping and the walking. In “An error occurred while processing…,” the error did the occurring, but the error didn’t do the processing. The real subject of “processing” is missing.
Hey, let’s hear some more about the draft lottery!
Seriously, we got in bed with the warlords for short-term purposes, just as we got in bed with the Shah, the Taliban, Saddam, et al. This particular lesson doesn’t seem to stick.
Mary
March 27, 2006 at 11:30 am
28Let’s face it, you can’t teach a (brain) dead dog new tricks.
Grant
March 27, 2006 at 9:43 pm
29An AP article documents that Afghanistan isn’t the only U.S.-allied government where Muslim converts to Christianity are threatened with execution.
Saudi Arabia neither permits conversion from Islam nor allows other religions in the kingdom. There are no churches and missionaries are barred. Saudi Arabia considers Sharia the law of the land, which considers conversion to any religion apostasy and the punishment is death.
In Kuwait, a court convicted a Shiite Muslim man who publicly proclaimed his conversion to Christianity, but didn’t sentence him since the criminal code did not set a punishment.
Egypt does not have laws criminalizing apostasy, but those who do convert can still face prosecution.
There are exceptions. In strongly secular Turkey, a convert can walk into a Demographic Records office, sign a declaration saying they have converted from Islam to Christianity and leave an hour later with a new identity card reflecting the change. While Islam is the religion of 99 percent of Turkey’s 71 million people, it has no official religion.
In Israel, the state has laws against missionary activities among Jews, but it does not punish converts.
In Tunisia and Algeria, the Islamic authorities take a dim view of conversion but the secular governments do not prohibit it and it does occur.
Ironically, IRAQ was the most tolerant country is the region as far as allowing Christians and other faiths to operate according to their beliefs. But unfortunately that has all changed now.
David
March 28, 2006 at 11:09 am
30Grant,
A very enlightening post.
David
March 28, 2006 at 11:19 am
31…we’re not really in a position to do anything but look at Afghanistan and say, “Boy, we really fucked that one up!”
Alternate version:
“…we’re not really in a position to do anything but look at ourselves and say, “Boy, we really are fucked up!”
I’m just sayin’.
Stephen
March 28, 2006 at 1:22 pm
32You know this isn’t so different from the Catholic or Jewish idea that if you change your religion you are dead to the family you came from. Granted that Islam has apparently taken it to the next level. It makes me curious; will this finally wake up Bush and his cronies in the religious right that, as far as the world is concerned, Christianity is small potatoes? How can they continue to claim that God wants them to save the world when 2/3 doesn’t even acknowledge the same God? OK, so I am a Christian and I think the way I see the world is right, that doesn’t give me the right to try and make other people see the world the way I do. They think they are right too. I wouldn’t want the majority religion in the world trying to tell me what to believe. Heck, I don’t even want the majority Christian religions telling me how to live my part of it. People who try to make everyone else believe as they do must not be very secure in their beliefs.
Am I wishful thinking again?
mastmaker
March 28, 2006 at 1:31 pm
33I just did a quick search for ‘waterfowler’. Nada! Wonder why he didn’t comment on this one. May be he read the label on the pack: ‘Smoking Irony is injurious to health!’
David
March 28, 2006 at 10:43 pm
34Stephen,
You’re on a wavelength that makes eminent good sense. Heathen-leaning though I be, you and Leslie are definitely my kind of Christians.
hedera
March 30, 2006 at 10:37 pm
35But you are wishful thinking again, Stephen…
Utah Mesothelioma Lawyer
April 9, 2006 at 6:45 pm
36Hello! I’m Fanny Pickens, from Seattle, Washington. Your blog is organized, informationrmative, and it contained lots of the information I needed for my college research paper. Thanks so much.