“It is unfortunate that we are in civil war… If this is not civil war, then God knows what civil war is.”
- Former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi
“What we’ve seen is a serious effort by them to foment civil war but I don’t think they’ve been successful.”
- Vice President Dick Cheney
“I think we have had a low-grade civil war going on in Iraq, certainly the last six months, maybe the last year.”
- Senator Chuck Hagel (R., Neb.)
“There has been an increase in sectarian violence but it is not a civil war.”
- British Defense Secretary John Reid
————————
“Domestic Fracas?”
“Intranational Spat?”
“Homeland Interfactional Armed Struggle Taking Place Under a Still Inadequately Manned but Undeniably Existent Fledgling Government that is at Least for the Moment Holding Firm in the Face of Sectarian Adversity?”
I guess those’d work. But they don’t have a beat you can dance to.
Your first question (don’t deny it!) has got to be, “Does it really matter whether we call it a ‘civil war’ or not?”
Of course it does.
I mean, it doesn’t matter to the people of Iraq, who are trying to get their lives together while dodging terrorist bombings and fomenting “revenge” violence against rival sects. Their lives will be the same tomorrow morning whatever we call the current situation. And naturally, it doesn’t matter to our 130,000+ American servicemen. Whether you call it a “civil war” or “youthful exuberance,” they’re going to be executing their missions while keeping a wary eye out for IEDs exploding candygrams for the foreseeable future.
But it matters to Guys In Suits like Allawi and Cheney, who will get much better or worse service in restaurants and hotels depending on what the answer is. But it also matters to all of us back home, particularly those of us who work in Hollywood or view its products. Remember: We are going to have to make a movie about this someday. And we have to know how the third act is going to play out.
Will it be a triumphant Sarge stomping down the Last Throes with his engaging and stalwart band of brothers, giving his boys a reluctant but hard-earned thumbs-up and a gruff smile around the stump of a well-chewed cigar as they all accept the cheers of the grateful throng? Or will it be a disillusioned young farm-boy looking back on the fiery ruin that has become a metaphor for his lost innocence as a helicopter lifts him away from Baghdad for the last time and uncomfortably thrashy rock music blares?
There’s no answer for that yet. Once we all agree that yes, it’s a civil war or no, it’s a speed bump on the road to triumph, we can all finish our treatments, polish our pitches, and get on with it, no matter what actually continues to happen on the ground over there.
You can help. You can help me, my Hollywood brothers and sisters, and your own cinematic and made-for-TV viewing experiences. Call your congressmen and senators, write to your local papers and demand some clarity on whether or not what’s happening in Iraq is or isn’t a “civil war.” It’s an easy call to make, and much more fun than demanding to know specifically what’s actually happening over there. And, as I said, it’ll really help us out over here, where the real fake war is going to be fought.
Fanny Roborat
67 comments
cooper
March 20, 2006 at 7:19 pm
1psst! Adam - “fledgling”
HIASTPUaSIMbUEFGtiaLftMHFitFOSA! You’re right, Adam, you can’t dance to that. (They had better acronyms in WWII. I’ve always been partial to SNAFU.) Why don’t they declare it “Victory and get out”*?
*VT Republican George Aiken , 1966
cooper
March 20, 2006 at 7:23 pm
2Damn, has it really been 40 years? I was a junior in high school when he made that statement. I remember seeing him say that on the evening news. Damn!
SeattleDan
March 20, 2006 at 7:36 pm
3Damn and double damn. I was a junior in HS that year,too,Coop.
But we had some good domestic fracaseses going on then,too.Selma had been the year before. We had a burgeoning anti-war movement and black power movement as well. Weren’t both Rubber Soul and Revolver released that year? And Koufax retired after the Orioles swept the Dodgers in the Series.
And Adam, I’m emailing and calling my Congresspeople,demanding the clarity we,as Americans,so clearly deserve. Good luck on that,though.
Boofus McGoofus
March 20, 2006 at 8:05 pm
4Perhaps they’re having their very own “War Between the States.” Except, you know, for not having states. Maybe it’s a “War Between the Sects.”
dee
March 20, 2006 at 8:34 pm
5I was trying to figure out the Iraqi equivalent of the War of the Roses, but ignorant as I am of what flowers grow in Iraq, I used Google and came up with this.
Every link on the site is a joke that writes itself.
Maximum Bob
March 20, 2006 at 9:24 pm
6Yes, I will call my Congressman and demand clarity. Then I’m going to call the butcher and order a vegetarian platter.
Murray
March 20, 2006 at 10:23 pm
7Hell, I was a freshman back then; I hope you guys don’t beat me up.
I use that phrase all the time. “You done with that project Murray?” “I’m declaring victory and leaving.”
I’m sure that the Bush crew is every bit as good at denying the truth as Baghdad Bob, but how long will America continue to consume their used snake oil?
cooper
March 20, 2006 at 11:28 pm
8Naw, Murray, we wouldn’t even stuff you into a locker. We’d be afraid you wouldn’t invite us to that big bash this summer - THE social event of the season. Be there or be square, as the AM DJ’s of that long ago era used to say.
siobhan
March 21, 2006 at 12:57 am
9For all of those congresspersons who are now saying that, come to think of it, they probably should have asked if there was a plan before voting to let Bush throw a war… “The Charge of the Late Brigade”.
(there’s got to be a “War Crimea-nals” comment, but I can’t quite work it…)
hedera
March 21, 2006 at 1:07 am
10I started out thinking that dee was off base in her comparison with the Wars of the Roses; and then I thought a little more about the Wars of the Roses. Opposing factions fighting over the country, check; armed militias on both sides, check; power brokers with their own militias, check (think Warwick the Kingmaker); actually the only things Iraq has that the Yorkists and Lancastrians didn’t have are IEDs (they’d only had gunpowder for about 200 years and were still trying to get the cannon to fire) and Islam. Both sides in the Wars of the Roses were Catholic, and they weren’t fighting over religion. (Yet.)
Swamp D
March 21, 2006 at 1:14 am
11Ancient Age damned, Cooper (that and Jim Beam were what I drank as an undergraduate - times were tough). I was in graduate school in 1966, having nearly been drafted for not starting in the summer of ‘65 after graduating from UF in December of ‘64. Had no idea summer counted as a second term out of school.
I see My President has asked me to look past the bloodshed in the Iraq Thing (This is the dawning of the Age of Democracy, Age of Democracy).
SeattleDan
March 21, 2006 at 1:24 am
12By the end of the War of the Roses (1485 with the death of Richard III and the advent of Henry Tudor, Henry VII, the Protestant movement hadn’t begun. It had to wait until 1519 and Martin Luther. And in England 1533 with Henry VIII and Thomas Cranmer.Enough history.
Coop, are you sure it wasn’t Murray we stuffed into that locker?
Allison (lurking in Santa Cruz)
March 21, 2006 at 2:31 am
13I was born in 1966!
spotteddog
March 21, 2006 at 3:18 am
14I skipped ‘66 and started in ‘67, just after the ‘Summer of Love’. I always regretted missing that.
If it is a civil war, does that mean that if we leave no-one will notice? Y’know, three’s a crowd and all that. Hmmm, have I stumbled onto something…
cooper
March 21, 2006 at 8:53 am
15spotteddog, three’s a crowd - excellent concept!
Murray
March 21, 2006 at 10:27 am
16Siobhan,
The more I think about the “Charge of the Light Brigade” and the Crimean war the more I see parallels to Bush’s War.
The only reason that the British entered a conflict between Russia and Turkey was because they just wanted to go to war, they sure had no dog in that fight.
The commander of the Light Brigade, The Earl of Cardigan, was one of the most incompetent and stupid people to ever lead a group into battle, but he looked good in his war outfit. His stupendous lack of intelligence was matched only by his pride and arrogance. Using bad information (an ambiguous order bungled by the messenger) he led his cavalry directly into heavy artillery. Virtually all of his men died but with unbelievable luck the Earl returned unscathed and was treated like a hero.
Stupidity leading to a huge loss of life made him famous because he looked good.
Ann
March 21, 2006 at 4:40 pm
17Doesn’t anyone have a sense of discretion and good manners anymore? If this has become a “domestic fracas” in Iraq, the least we can do is give them some privacy and pretend we don’t see it. Let’s not be gossips!
tribolumen
March 21, 2006 at 4:57 pm
18Hm… The parallels with the Crimean war are striking, but to avoid confusing history students down the road it might be best to use a slightly different handle for this war. In honor of the reality-impaired thinking that led to the current mess, may I suggest “The Charge of the Lightweights Bridgade”?
Ibid
March 21, 2006 at 5:12 pm
19It’s the continuation of a civil war that was interrupted by a brutal dictator and is just picking up again now that intermission is over.
Hot Tub Tommy
March 21, 2006 at 6:10 pm
20ibid, well since you put it that way, I’m sure glad I’m not an Iraqi - which makes me even more glad to be an American! I hope we all can step back from this unsettling conversation and reflect for a moment how lucky we are to be living in this wonderland land of freedom and abundance. Our forefathers fought in previous and, I’ll admit, better wars to win the freedoms we all enjoy and to establish the economic system we all now thrive and prosper under.
I know you will all want to protect and defend our great democracy and contribute to the patriotic legislators, who forgo large salaries in the corporate world in order to further the protection of the liberties we love and cherish. Please send a donation to the Re-Elect Representative Thomas Delay (R,TX) or the Get Out of Jail Free Committee. Thank you and may God Bless America!
Representative Thomas Delay (R,TX)
God Bless You!
Maximum Bob
March 21, 2006 at 6:18 pm
21Tommy, what’s really great about America is that you don’t need a large salary if all your goodies are expensed to someone else’s tab! Not that I’m telling you anything new, pard.
Sharon
March 21, 2006 at 7:12 pm
22It could be that the Earl of Cardigan and George W. are distant relations. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Bush Dynasty prides itself on its descent from British royalty.
I, too, remember the “declare vistory and get out” strategy. I was a sophomore in ‘66. The year I turned 18, my birthdate turned up as number 99 in the lottery. If I’d been a boy, I would have been a Canadian citizen for nearly 30 years now.
cooper
March 21, 2006 at 7:34 pm
23Sharon, one of my buddies in high school and in college had number 365 when he was 18. The birthday that counted was the 19th year and his number that year was 7. No kidding, he went on to get his Phd in Mechanical Engineering. The Vietnam War was just about over when he finished his studies. My lottery number was 174. The draft board in my county stopped at 171 during my year of eligiblity (I started one semester late and never did have a firm gasp of my student deferment). The next term I dropped out of my engineering at NC State and, with a good friend, toured much of the North American continent. This, too, was a vital part of my education. I did eventually graduate, but not in engineering.
BTW, I was a nice nerd and never would have stuffed you into a locker. You think you might have gone out with me?
Murray
March 21, 2006 at 8:00 pm
24Coop,
Down boy.
My draft number the year before mine was 365, and the year that counted my wife had #1 and I was (thank lobster) 356. I didn’t have to choose between Viet Nam, Canada, or jail. 174 would have had me VERY nervous for a year.
cooper
March 21, 2006 at 8:34 pm
25oh, yeah.
Sharon
March 21, 2006 at 9:23 pm
26My mistake. I was number 99 in the lottery held on July 1, 1970–the year I turned 19–according to this website.
You want to talk about being a nerd? *I* was a nerd. Absolutely I would have gone out with you coop.
Murray
March 21, 2006 at 9:49 pm
27I don’t want to get in the middle of this one. (Those who want to see how it turns out will need to come to Felberpalooza).
On a really different subject, (and as usual I’m a day late here) Happy Vernal Equinox! If we choose not to celebrate myths or morally dubious political days, this is what we have left. Celestial events! What the hell! (Oops sorry, back to that myth thing.) From now here on we get more light than dark! I’m all for that!
dee
March 21, 2006 at 9:58 pm
28My my — how it must amuse the youngsters when we go shuffling down Memory Lane. And what fun those draft lotteries were! I remember exchanging letters with high school friends in 1972 (our eligible year)about who had what number, and sitting in the lounge at college while guys with low numbers got physically ill when they heard the news.
Wonder if they’ll use a lottery system when the Smirking Putz decides to invade Iran.
Maximum Bob
March 21, 2006 at 10:16 pm
29I hope the young’uns aren’t too amused by this lottery talk (I got a 304 in ‘72, if I recall correctly). Because, excuse me for bringing this up, but the past has a way of, uh, repeating itself, you see.
So, kids, when election time rolls around, be sure to vote, OK? It’s patriotic, it’s fun, and–hey, you never know–it just might save your ass. Word! Now, get off my lawn.
Linkmeister
March 21, 2006 at 10:44 pm
30Here’s an official lottery site, at least if .gov can be considered official. I was in the first one (12/1/69), and came up #266.
I enlisted into the Navy two and one-half years later, as ‘Nam was winding down. I ended up with two years shore duty in Japan.
cooper
March 21, 2006 at 11:00 pm
31Linkmeister, I, too, considered the Navy, in between colleges. I talked with the recruiter, did the testing, must have been one of my good days because when I got the results back, the recruiter, who had been steering me towards nuclear submarines, said I had done good and I could do anything I wanted to in This Man’s Navy. I said, “Good, I want to be an Admiral”. Needless to say, the interview deteriorated from there and after landing on the sidewalk, I limped away a free man. But wiser!
Sharon
March 21, 2006 at 11:06 pm
32As someone once said, history may not always repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme. And speaking of which, read what Howard Zinn has to say today, but don’t read it unless you’re sitting down. And you might want to have a beer handy. Or whatever your legal drug of choice is.
cooper
March 21, 2006 at 11:08 pm
33“What we’ve seen is a serious effort by them to foment civil war but I don’t think they’ve been successful.” Dick Cheney.
Fomenting civil war must be one of the final, desperate, absolutely-end-of-the-rope throes of the insurgency, conducted in the last moments before folding up their tents and ordering roses to strew in our path, huh, Mr. Cheney?
Ann
March 21, 2006 at 11:09 pm
34Geez, I thought *I* was old. Now I won’t worry about what I look like at Felberpalooza. If I get to go.
cooper
March 21, 2006 at 11:18 pm
35Linkmeister, I just checked your link to the lottery. 12/1/69 was my lottery, too, and there I am - Nov. 30 (Sagittarius; Year of the Ox) - #174. My upper lip is sweating. Man that takes me back!
Sharon, I’m not up to speed on how to use the cute smiley face icons, so (wink!).
Sharon
March 21, 2006 at 11:27 pm
36Yep, we’re the reason advertisers go for that 18-49 demographic. After that, the bullshit detector is firmly in place. For most of us, anyway.
Sharon
March 21, 2006 at 11:29 pm
37The smiley faces caught me by surprise one day. What I typed in was ; - ) (but without the spaces) and the software converted it to an icon.
hedera
March 21, 2006 at 11:48 pm
38Yeah, we used to have the idea that a standing army was a bad idea for a peaceful nation, so we kept a small core of professional officers and drafted cannon fodder if a conflict arose. When we start hiring foreign mercenaries I’ll know we’re REALLY head down the Roman road. So far we’re still hiring American mercenaries, I think. The draft did one thing: it concentrated the minds of an entire generation on foreign policy.
My first husband joined the air force, in 1964 or ‘65 (I met him in ‘69), to avoid the draft; spent his military career on missile sites, a good deal of it in Germany. I still remember a party in ‘72 or so, when we were still married; I mentioned this strategy to a kid young enough never to have worried about the draft, and he was totally flummoxed as to why ANYONE would join the military.
hedera
March 21, 2006 at 11:51 pm
39Yes, I know, SeattleDan - the English didn’t fight each other over religion until the mid 17th century. True, under various flavors of Tudor, Catholics and/or Protestants could be executed for heresy (Mary was Catholic, remember); but armies didn’t take the field until the English Civil War in the 1640s.
cooper
March 21, 2006 at 11:54 pm
40Sharon, you mean
?
cooper
March 21, 2006 at 11:55 pm
41Hey it worked! Thanks, Sharon.
David, aka Anonymous David
March 22, 2006 at 12:28 am
42The Smirking Putz - damned, does that ever capture the GDSALYSOS.
Speaking of rockets at Felberpalooza, one of the feature attractions at one time here in Central Florida was an exotic male dancer named Rocket Rod (I guess in honor of the Cape).
Advertisement went something like “Just back from a 3-month capital cities tour of Europe. See how much thrust his rocket can develop.” I never did catch one of his launches, but maybe he could be enticed to come to Felberpalooza for the Rocket Gala. And can we bring mortars as substitutes?
MN
March 22, 2006 at 12:38 am
43My newspaper termed it “inter-sectarian reprisal killings.” Probably just because that’s easier to say than “civil war.”
SeattleDan
March 22, 2006 at 12:58 am
44hedera, I knew you knew! I was providing context.I was a History Major.Class of ‘72. Go UCLA!
My number was 342,in 1969,the first year. What amazes me here is that all us guys of that age remember exactly what our numbers were. My brother-in-law, three days younger than I was,had the the number 42. He decided to become a divinity student and now is a Rabbi in the LA area. Divinity students could still get deferments at the time.
nigel
March 22, 2006 at 1:00 am
45http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/21/afghan.christian/index.html
Congress shall make no law regarding establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free expression thereof.
Appropriations are cool though, even if the money ain’t there.
Unlike the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan was overdue. But the US should demand certain things of its puppets. Starting with the Bill of Rights. Rifles and all.
hedera
March 22, 2006 at 1:06 am
46Minor in medieval English history (English Major), class of ‘67, U.C. Berkeley. Go Bears!
hedera
March 22, 2006 at 1:10 am
47You’re right, nigel. I wonder how long it’ll take the religious right to leap on that; I would have expected them to hit it right away. Afghanistan is like Iraq: if we’re going to be there, we should BE there, instead of messing around on the fringes.
Given the way we support dictators like Musharraf and King Abdullah (Saudi Arabia), we’re hardly in a position to insist on human rights in Afghanistan. But don’t worry about the rifles. They already have ‘em.
siobhan
March 22, 2006 at 1:14 am
48This week’s This Modern World ties in nicely with the Afghan story…
Linkmeister
March 22, 2006 at 3:00 am
49Seattle Dan, maybe not so surprising. A fraternity brother of mine (3 years older) was caught up in that first lottery and got yanked out of his first year of grad school to go to Phu Bai (he got back ok; that was a base, not a firefight). It focused one’s mind when things like that happened.
MadLurker
March 22, 2006 at 9:30 am
50Okay, for those of us that aren’t old enough to remember history, but of the right age to perhaps relive it, could you please explain what I got 325 in the year that counted meant? I mean, I get that 325 was the call up series number, but how often were numbers called (like, if you’re 99, did you freak - where’s the cut off), and what years “counted”?
Hot Tub Tommy
March 22, 2006 at 10:11 am
51mudlarker, let me answer that one, since my position of power gives me access to the latest and greatest. The lottery for the calendar year following your 19th birthday was the one that applied to you. You were assigned a number based on the drawing for that year - that was your number. If you did not qualify for a deferment (student attending college, medical, etc.), then you were eligible for induction into the U.S. Army, which was doing most of the fighting in Vietnam. Each county in your state needed to supply x number of men for the draft. If your county had not met their required number of draftees when they got to your lottery number, you were inducted. Good-by Sam; hello ‘nam!
Many people decided to join the Navy, the Air Force or the Coast Guard to avoid combat in Vietnam. They still served their country in many useful and glorious ways, but did have a bit of control over thier destiny. If you had a low lottery number and a questionable future in college, the smart man enlisted in one of the above services.
I hope this discussion has shined a new light onto recent American history and has given you a new appreciation for that gray and balding supervisor, trying to imbue good work ethics into your worthless slacker hide. Yes, he may be a domineering asshole, but you can learn a few workplace survival skills from him. Also check out his tattoos. Those amorphous blue blobs once were highly skilled works of art. Now they are indecipherable Rorschach tests and precancerous melanoma breeding grounds. Learn from that, too.
This is but one of the many services an experienced Congressman can provide to the citizens of this great country. I hope you will consider making a contribution to the Re-election Campaign and Legal Defense Fund of Representative Thomas Delay, the working and fighting man’s friend in Washington!
Rep. Thomas Delay (R,TX)
God Bless America!
Murray
March 22, 2006 at 10:23 am
52MadLurker
During the early part of the Viet Nam War, young males were drafted at random. This disrupted their lives something terrible. Approximately 1/2 of the eligible men got drafted, but that meant that you had to put your life on hold for a year, not knowing if you should take that job with IBM or practice your French. To make things more settled the Defense Department held a lottery every year. Every day of the year went into a hopper and they pulled them out one by one. If your birthday was in the 1st 1/3, start packing, 2/3, bite your nails, last 3rd, pop the cork (or at least pull the tab on your beer). Your number sealed your fate. You didn’t forget your number.
Julia
March 22, 2006 at 11:19 am
53I know I’m terribly late, but may I submit ‘heavily armed family spat?’
julia
Julie
March 22, 2006 at 12:25 pm
54Adam, Please, please please write a comment on Bush’s recent press conference, especially his comments that “future Presidents and future governments of Iraq” will have to decide when to withdraw troops. Talk about avoiding responsibility!
Mary
March 22, 2006 at 1:44 pm
55Not being a guy, the draft didn’t personally affect me. However, my brother got #3!!!!! Thank Lobster he didn’t go. (I wasn’t a freshman till 1965)
How about “Chaotic familial hostilities”?
Siobhan
March 22, 2006 at 2:29 pm
56I guess the fact that my husband was a Navy guy has something to do with his lottery number being 24?
Harold
March 22, 2006 at 2:30 pm
57I hat to be so off-topic once again, but listening to the “Civil War” quotes on Morning Edition today got me thinking about this issue.
First of all, this is clearly not a Civil War. If it were, one side would be dresed in blue, one side would be drssed in gray, and everybody would be wearing floppy hats and have big, droopy moustaches. There would be cannons and bayonets everywhere, too.
If the folks in Iraq were smart, they would make it clear that this is a Civil War - it’s an investment in their future. Think of all the potential tourist revenue. There could be bus tours of the Civil War battlefields (pretty much everywhere and anywhere) and the Civil War graveyards (usually unmarked mass graves.) Lots of folks could find employment as Civil War reenactors - and probably will.
Ann
March 22, 2006 at 3:26 pm
58Y’know, Adam is getting pretty lazy here. I’m boycotting the site until we get more frequent postings and more controversy.
I love you all like my (apparently much older) brothers and sisters, but comparing lottery numbers doesn’t make for fascinating reading. Shalll we start on our SATs next? Property taxes? I can’t really justify ignoring my work for this!
Adam, get back here STAT!
Maximum Bob
March 22, 2006 at 4:00 pm
59Ann, any more snarky comments about our alleged advanced age and I’ll give you a serious thrashing with my walker.
Sharon
March 22, 2006 at 4:41 pm
60Ann,
Luckily for you, I don’t remember my exact SAT scores.
waterfowler
March 22, 2006 at 6:38 pm
61Ann, I’m w/ you on this one.
Coop, sorry about your Carolina teams. Hook ‘em Horns!!!
piglet
March 22, 2006 at 6:46 pm
62Re the Crimean War parallels: how about the Criminettly War? Or has no one else heard of my late grandma’s favorite curse word?
cooper
March 22, 2006 at 7:07 pm
63Mr. Fowler, kind words? Whoa! Thank you, I’ll take them where I can find them. Actually, I don’t give a hopping hell about basketball.
Ann, nobody likes a troublemaker. Go sit in the corner.
Under the guise of anything to drive Iraq out of the headlines, the White House is making a big deal about the indictment of 50 narco-terrorists in Colombia. “The Largest Ever U.S. Narcotics-Trafficking Indictment” So what? It turns out that Colombia only has 3 of them in custody and the rest are on the loose in the jungle. What’s the point of the 3″ bold type? More of the same old shell game, I’m sure.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/22/justice.farc/index.html
Sharon
March 22, 2006 at 7:30 pm
64Cooper, as the Repugnants were saying a couple of months ago, “you can indict a ham sandwich,” too, it don’t mean nothin’. Right, Hot Tub Tommy?
Sharon
March 22, 2006 at 7:58 pm
65Fox News is asking, “Are we already at war with Iran?”
Next up:
“Is Bush already the King of America?”
“Are liberals already Godless heathens that have been executed in gas chambers?”
“Has reality already been entirely supplanted by propaganda?”
(I lifted those last three from one of the comments.)
Hot Tub Tommy
March 23, 2006 at 8:50 am
66Sharon, let me be the first to congratulate you in seeing through the flimsy and politically generated case against me and suggest that you too can help to right this injustice by making a heartfelt and generous contribution to the Tom Delay - Prisoner of Politics - Defense Fund. Thank you and may God bless America!
Representative Thomas Delay (R,TX)
Pete IVDL
March 23, 2006 at 5:52 pm
67Wow guys! Medieval American History! Cool! And here I was thinking the lottery numbers were declared in Roman numerals. (Born in ‘63, still not grown up).
On the original topic (remember that?), what about “Islamic tag team Marine Mania!”
Yeah, yeah, I know, the door’s that way. (slam)