… and you didn’t even know I was gone.
I just flew in from Salt Lake City, and boy are my alms tired.
Thank you very much. [To my Mormon readers - feel free to put that gem on a T-shirt!]
Yes, it was a fun “Wait Wait” there, as you’ll hear this weekend. The panel was Mo Rocca, Paula Poundstone, and yrs trly… which is more or less a perfect storm of frustratingly dense chatter from an editor’s perspective.
But before I give myself the rest of the afternoon off (I’m a GREAT boss), I wanted to start up one thing I’ve been meaning to get to…
The “Iraq Mess” Race to Blame the Liberals Watch, 2006!
The time is almost here. Iraq is beginning to come apart at the seams. This might be the Big Kickoff, or it might be a little ways down the road. But everyone knows it’s coming. Everyone at the Pentagon. Everyone at the White house (with perhaps one notable exception).
But here’s the thing. When it happens, it’s going to be ugly. We’re either going to have to send in a lot more troops, or “get out and let the country burn.”
And that’s when it will begin. Though this war was a neo-con baby, bought and paid for by the ruling party, opposed vigorously or not-so-vigorously by a near-powerless opposition, it doesn’t matter: When it all hits the fan, you’re not going to be hearing a lot of apologies from the war’s architects.
No, it’ll be our fault. Us liberals. Me.
I’m not exactly sure how it’s all my fault, but I know it is. To find out, I’ll just have to wait until they tell me, which is actually kind of exciting. They’ll find something. They’ll ding us for “gloating,” claiming that this proves we hate America. Or maybe we protested too loudly and undermined the troops’ confidence, gave aid and comfort to our enemies, and etc. Or perhaps we didn’t believe hard enough, and thus al-Tinkerbell died. It’s hard to see exactly how the guys who control all three branches of the government are going to blame the guys who control none of ‘em, but they will. Sadly, this is the kind of war that the administration is good at planning.
And that’s what I’m launching today. A Watch. Maybe a little prematurely, but you guys have long memories. I want us all to keep a watch out for the first signs of this phenomenon, so we can document it thoroughly. Your findings can be entered into the Comments here or emailed to me. Because if we’re going to take the blame for this, we’d might as well enjoy it.
Fanny Roborat
121 comments
Sharon
February 24, 2006 at 8:31 pm
1Maybe we could start a pool, too, like they do for football games. Take a piece of paper and divide it into a 10x 10 grid, and then we’ll each “buy” a square and fill it in with out favorite reason why the failure of this particular experiment in imposing…er, I mean exporting…er…whatever is the fault of Liberals. I’m going with the “Clinton” excuse.
Sharon
February 24, 2006 at 8:35 pm
2er…Adam, maybe this was intended to be a pun, but did you mean “arms” or “alms” there in sentence 2?
I would have emailed this, but I don’t know your address.
dee
February 24, 2006 at 8:42 pm
3It’s the Liberals’ insistence on there being an “election” in 2004. If the president hadn’t been distracted by having to campaign, we could have captured Osama Bin Laden, established a fully functioning, democratically elected government in Iraq, brought all the troops home, and guaranteed ice cream for everyone.
Maximum Bob
February 24, 2006 at 8:43 pm
4Not to worry. Eventually people will come to realize that this war is Adam Carolla’s fault.
Ann
February 24, 2006 at 8:57 pm
5Sharon, that was the reason for the “Mormons” reference. (What’s the emoticon for that ba-da-boop sound the drummer makes after a bad joke?)
Pete IVDL
February 24, 2006 at 9:11 pm
6It’s obvious : when the rest of the free world laughed itself sick at the “Mission: Accomplished” pissing competition/circus, it restarted the whole war, even though “it” was “accomplished”.
I’ve just finished “Bush On The Couch”. The description of the sad and hilarious “Mission Accomplished” business was right on the money. But now I’m scared, really scared… And Adam (Lobster click him) is right about passing blame. It’s going to start subtly, but it’s going to start. That’s how Bush works - he fucks something up because he has an urge, can’t comprehend the consequences, and when the going gets tough, the tough get buttfucked. Pardon my American.
Linkmeister
February 24, 2006 at 9:22 pm
7Ann, that would be “rimshot,” I believe. The drummer hits the rim of the snare with one of his sticks.
Sharon
February 24, 2006 at 9:38 pm
8Ann, I thought about that, but I didn’t know why Mormons would be associated with “alms” more than, say, Baptists. I guess there are gaps in my education.
Pete, thanks for sharing that image. But seriously, that’s been the story of W’s life, has it not? He screws up, and Daddy or Daddy’s friends bail him out.
Murray
February 24, 2006 at 10:23 pm
9Come on guys, this is the administration where when Cheney shoots someone, it turns out to be the other guy’s fault.
It’ll be a piece of cake for them.
Murray
February 24, 2006 at 10:42 pm
10To start with Clinton destroyed the moral fabric of America.
With no morals we have little ability to maintain a long struggle, we are all too consumed with pleasure and debauchery. We have succumbed to the lure of evolution, killing babies and being gay, thus God forsaken. Even the shining example of Dick and W are not enough to redeem the US. Arab countries seeing that we no longer have the backbone needed to sustain a war (and God must be on their side in punishing a nation of Evolution believing, gay, baby killers) know that they just have to hold on for about 3 years or so and the US will slink back to it’s silk robes, Carl Sagan books, while watching the Slaughter Babies Game Show on LOGO TV.
See. It’s Clinton’s fault. It was that blow job that wrecked Iraq.
siobhan
February 25, 2006 at 12:37 am
11“See. It’s Clinton’s fault. It was that blow job that wrecked Iraq.”
Well, I guess that explains why the situation sucks.
ice weasel
February 25, 2006 at 1:15 am
12So about all this ice cream talk…
SeattleDan
February 25, 2006 at 2:30 am
13I want some of that Iraqii road ice cream. I am blaming Clinton.It was him all along. You know it. I know it.
ginny
February 25, 2006 at 4:01 am
14We did not fly enough ginormous US of American flags staple-gunned to sticks stuck in the back of our ginormous jacked-up gun-racked gas-guzzling big-tired pickup trucks.
Also we did not buy enough “Support Our Troops!!” yellow ribbon magnets from that guy in China.
But I’m up for ice cream, always. Does Iraq have Dippin Dots, teh Ice Cream of the Future? No?
(Salt Lake? Dammit, hubby and I should have taken our vacation there and dragged my entire extended family to the show. Stupid of us to come to Maui instead. Stupid tropical paradise with great food and drink and flowers and whales and… okay, well I hope you had a nice time in Shit Lake Salty, Adam!)
Harold
February 25, 2006 at 9:48 am
15How to think like a Republican:
1. Whenever possible, blame Clinton.
2. If this is not possible for obvious timeline reasons, blame Carter.
3. If #2 fails, blame Roosevelt and the New Deal.
4. If you’ve really screwed up, bring up Ted Kennedy and Chappaquidick.
Example:
The mess in Iraq can be traced to a failure of leadership during the Clinton years, when the Democrats failed to deal with the emerging threats of militant Islam that had grown from seeds that first germinated during the Carter administration. Carter’s failure to forcefully and decisively deal with emerging Islamic fundamentalists in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, and most notably Iran has directly led to the current Middle East situation. And FDR’s so-called “New Deal” has led to a weakening of America’s resolve. Also, Ted Kennedy once crashed a car and left his secretary behind to drown. So, clearly, the current administration is not to blame.
Julia
February 25, 2006 at 10:27 am
16Rumsfeld said it: “The U.S. government still functions as a five and dime store in an eBay world.”
It’s the liberals’ insistence on tradition - they just won’t budge. From generally accepted accounting principles in mom-and-pop corporations, all the way up to checks and balances at the the federal level - the Left insists that we stop to cross every T, dot every I, request every warrant. If we could have streamlined - maybe move SCOTUS into the East Wing and cut Congress down to 50 oro 60 hand-picked white men — it would all have been much different.
Julia
Liberals are just so 18th-century…
Invigilator
February 25, 2006 at 11:45 am
17Could I put my money on “you traitorous liberals protested too much and a) demoralized the troops, and b) wouldn’t let us do the things that needed to be done, like razing more cities, creating more free-fire zones, locking up all suspicious adult males and torturing them or maybe their children, etc., etc.”?
Anybody gonna be making book on this?
nato
February 25, 2006 at 12:43 pm
18And don’t forget, we insisted on our children going to college rather than war. Had we L/liberals been truly patriotic Americans, our children would have been the first in line at the nation’s armed services recruiting offices (and not the friggin’ Coast Guard, dammit!). Now I just have to come up with a compelling “damned liberals” argument for the administration’s shitcanning of General Shinseki when he said we’d actually need some extra troops over there. Oh, the heady days of pre-war, when the whole thing could be accomplished with 100,000 troops or less and would pay for itself . . . Well, I’m off to spend the weekend searching for Iraqis to shower me with flowers and chocolate, or whatever the love-fest in Iraq is supposed to end in.
nato
February 25, 2006 at 3:01 pm
19“Anybody gonna be making book on this?” — Would you like it to be a board book, something dubya might actually pick up and “read”?
Sharon
February 25, 2006 at 3:42 pm
20Just look at all this negativity! No wonder the war/invasion/occupation/exporting of democracy thingy is not going well. The fault lies with all you Nattering Nabobs of Negativity….
Oop, sorry. I had a flashback to the Nixon years there for a moment.
ice weasel
February 25, 2006 at 3:59 pm
21Harold, that was a brilliant reduction but I would tactic.
Alternate #5. If the issue is race, bring up all those racist Southern Democrats from days gone by as an example of how the left hates minorities (all the time ignoring that those same Southern dems magically turned into republicans).
Allison in Santa Cruz (alas, now reduced to lurker status)
February 25, 2006 at 4:37 pm
22I want dibs on the square that says “Didn’t have faith.” In God, or Bush, or whomever.
Now that I think about it a bit more, though, maybe it’s a matter of semantics. Lately it feels like there’s a whole other lexicon out there that sure as hell doesn’t jive with the one I’ve been using my whole life. For example, “victory,” “response,” and “fine job” just don’t seem to mean what they used to.
Harold
February 25, 2006 at 4:52 pm
23Oh, yes, Ice Weasel, how could I forget! Republicans like to call themselves “the party of Lincoln” and the Democrats “the party that supported slavery”.
tess
February 25, 2006 at 6:01 pm
24Damn it, Invigilator, I wanted to put money on “you liberals didn’t support us and now look what happened!” Now I’m just going to have to settle for “you damn liberals didn’t support our economy enough by driving giant SUVs to support of big truck manufacturers.”
hedera
February 25, 2006 at 6:45 pm
25I thought the Salt Lake City audience on WWDTM didn’t seem to realize what it had signed up for. It’s the first time I remember hearing Peter booed - twice, too. Although, among the boos, after the remark on Alito lighting his cigar with the bill of rights, were some definite whistles and cheers, too.
Johnnyboy
February 25, 2006 at 8:07 pm
26Oh, I don’t know if it was really a boo after that Alito joke. It sounded more to me like an “ooouuh !” - slightly shocked but overall appreciative of the joke’s boldness. But maybe Adam can comment - if he was paying attention instead of polishing up his Poconoes repertoire.
Adam, the “curse of the sexiest man alive” made me laugh out loud (not an easy task) - and with the repeats we get here on sunday, I LOL’d twice !
Harold
February 25, 2006 at 8:14 pm
27In the movie version of “Starship Troopers”, the first Arachnid/human conflict (a slaughter of humans by Arachnids, which later escalated into a mutual war of genocide) resulted from the encroachment of Mormon colonists onto a “Bug” planet. Paul Verhoeven notes on the commentary that this bit got a huge laugh when the movie was shown in Salt Lake City.
Any of our resident LDS folks have a take on the audience reactions to today’s WWDTM?
Pete IVDL
February 25, 2006 at 8:16 pm
28I get the feeling that we’re all missing an important point here. The Bush administration (and I use the word in its broadest sense) has never needed an actual logical, honest, coherent argument to make a decision!
No, no, no, the economy was caused by the invasion of Iraq, stupid.
And Clinton forced Bush to jump into a flight suit and declare that the “mission” was “accomplished”. If Bush hadn’t done that to rescue Valerie Plame, all Americans would be eating Yellowcake right now. Don’t forget that.
Finally, he’d like to draw your attention to the fact that Karl Rove has been assisting various enquiries, on his own time, in the cause for Freedom.
And let’s not forget “Kleen[ex] Skies”, nor what the Democrats wanted to do - cuttify down all those old-growth forests to save birds.
No, my friends, the results of the currant administration will give Liberals much work for many years to come.
You’re welcome.
Pete IVDL
February 25, 2006 at 9:14 pm
29BTW, hedera, it sounds more like appreciative (yet shocked and awed) “ohhhhh”s from the audience, rather than the darker and dirtier ‘torch and pitchfork’ type “oooaaarrrrr”.
Adam’s thick-skinned, anyway. He puts up with us, f’rinstance…
Siobhan
February 25, 2006 at 9:14 pm
30The lefty nay-sayers, in spelling out a worst-case scenario, effectively gave them the road-map to fail. If they hadn’t described how it could all end in a civil war, the Iraquis never would have figured it out for themselves.
That, and we failed to get excited enough when the statue came down. Everything was going great until then.
Adam Felber
February 25, 2006 at 10:26 pm
31Hedera -
Pete IVDL is absolutely right - it was more of an appreciative “Ooh,” I think.
The Salt Lake City audience was absolutely smashingly terrific. Surprisingly (or maybe I mean “unsurprisingly”), our red-state audiences are often our most enthusiastic. Apparently we sold out that 2,000 seat venue in 10 days, and we were treated better than we have any right to be.
In any case, whatever the show sounds like (I haven’t heard it yet), rest assured that we were among a tremendously welcoming and gracious bunch of people in the mountains of Utah. We never once felt we had to flee, which was a welcome change of pace.
Siobhan
February 25, 2006 at 10:55 pm
32Never having watched Jeopardy (since that would involve a TV and all), I was impressed by Ken Jennings. Quick and witty.
hedera
February 26, 2006 at 2:03 am
33Well, I’m glad to hear things went well; it was really funny, and I was also completely stunned by Ken Jennings. I don’t think he actually knew any of the answers; he’s just astoundingly good at picking the right answer out of a multiple choice.
Siobhan, I don’t think you give the Iraqis enough credit; they’d have figured this scenario out. You realize this is exactly what happened in Yugoslavia after Tito died: a country that had been forcibly held in something resembling unity by a dictator exploded into genocidal, squabbling fragments (only some of which were Muslim) virtually as soon as the lid was removed. We removed the lid in Iraq, and the pot is boiling over.
lurker dave
February 26, 2006 at 3:34 am
34People, don’t you understand they’re just imitating our best traits: Decisiveness and taking action.
The good people of Iraq are just practicing pre-emptive warfare… They’ve decided that thier neighbors are potential threats and need to be dealt with. They don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud over thier dome.
It’s the shrub doctrine. So I’m kinda confused as to why ShrubCo is appealing for calm, dialogue and stepping back from the brink. How French-like.
Thank you for letting me vent a little.
BTW, Allison in SC… Welcome to the LurkerLounge, we have a very dignified and anonymous guest list, an open bar against the far wall (paid for by skimming 10 percent of the donated paypal amount, Adam will never figure it out), reading salons and many witty if somewhat shy patrons. Welcome!
Siobhan
February 26, 2006 at 10:31 am
35Hedera, I only meant that was the excuse that was going to be used when blaming the liberals. A blind man coulda seen this one coming…
cooper
February 26, 2006 at 11:25 am
36hedera, good analogy of Yugoslavia vs Iraq -with the same results, too, I’m afraid. Maybe partioning would have been the best outcome in hindsight. Once the civil war starts, we’ll have to go back in there with more force, separate the warring parties and stand guard on the borders between them for, oh I don’t know - how long have we been in Korea - over 50 years. The last I looked, there’s still no light at the end of that tunnel.
Adam, I just noticed the new cover art for your novel. So you continue to cruelly juggle cats, but now you use your feet? Acck!
Tiffany
February 26, 2006 at 1:48 pm
37I am one of the resident Mormons and regret that I was not able to attend this taping in person. I did, however, hear the broadcast yesterday and I thought it was well done. I really appreciated Peter’s crack about SLC’s “buying” of the Olympics, even if many in the live audience didn’t. I also thoroughly enjoyed Ken Jenning’s appearance….to be honest, I thought the answer was “ho” as well. (Rake? What were they thinking?) Jennings’ mother is the librarian at my children’s elementary school, which has allowed us the opportunity to get to know her a little as well. I can see where Ken gets some of his sense of humor. Thanks for stopping in, Adam. I hope to have the chance to meet you some time.
Maximum Bob
February 26, 2006 at 4:30 pm
38hedera, you’re right on the money with the Tito/Yugoslavia comparison.
The amazing thing is, we’ve seen this movie before, and the administration is still surprised by the ending.
Cognitive Dissident
February 26, 2006 at 6:53 pm
39It’s already started… I got this gem from a friend:
Also, did I hear something about cat juggling? Anybody need a kitten?
Siobhan
February 26, 2006 at 9:53 pm
40And don’t forget, it’s all the Democrats’ fault because they didn’t stop us from going to war.
Scooby
February 26, 2006 at 9:54 pm
41This just in… several eyewitnesses spotted Al Franken and Michael Moore leaving the Golden Mosque in Samarra shortly before the explosions Wednesday.
Only fair and balanced news here…
Sharon
February 26, 2006 at 9:55 pm
42I saw a side-bar ad on some right-wing blog the other day–”I’d rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than ride in a car with Ted Kennedy.” Mildly amusing, but still another variation on, “They did it first.”
Maximum Bob
February 26, 2006 at 10:41 pm
43Funny, the Republicans never advise staying indoors when Laura Bush is driving. Now, why is that?
Sharon
February 26, 2006 at 10:55 pm
44MBob, that’s old news, we’ve already talked about this, it was an accident, my advisors have advised me that this is irrelevant, and it’s very ungentlemanly of you to bring it up again and again and again. (Did I leave anything out? I was trying to channel Scott McClelland, and it was very painful.)
Maximum Bob
February 26, 2006 at 11:48 pm
45Sorry to put you through that, Sharon.
hedera
February 27, 2006 at 1:39 am
46Sorry, siobhan, sometimes my mind is too literal…
Anonymous
February 27, 2006 at 2:39 am
47Though not a regular contributor to this blog, I’m so concerned by this issue I felt the need to comment. First, I should like to say that as a Republican I being to question the expense of going in there now in the first place. However, being of draftable age and having fraternity brothers serving in country I feel that if I were called it is my duty as an American to go over and fight. It is the duty off all Americans to serve their country if called upon. Sure. The name calling will start Democrats will get blamed for not supporting the war enough and Republicans will play the soft on terror card. This is the nature of American politics. From the debate on the American System under president John Quincy Adams to the War in Iraq under Bush bitter partisan politics is the name of the game. In the end, it does nothing to help this country. In the end though, will we be able to look beyond partisan politics and answer one question. “Will the lives of our servicemen and women lost be worth the outcome?” “Is this something better then a Vietnam?”
We cannot gage the war in minutes hours or even days. We must gage it in a definitive end. The question is not today or even tomorrow. It is a matter of when can we leave and have a free Iraq stand on its own? As we look toward the events of the past week there are some clear issues. First, the level of effective Iraqi forces is not there. Secondly, the training of these forces is not up to speed. Finally, the efforts by this administration to reach out and work with regional partners with the consideration and with the sanction of the new Iraqi government have failed. If we do end up failing her the consequences are enormous and we will have no one to blame except ourselves. This is an outcome no American would be happy with. There are those who will think it was a right and good thing and thump their chests in defiance. Others will continue to say immediate withdraw and for us to pull out now. But, neither solution is right. The right one is one where are troops can leave with honor and come home to warm welcome and not cast away in the shadows of American society. We must honor their comment and willingness to sacrifice for a country they so believed in that they would die for.
Look at our wars - Korea and Vietnam - their monuments stand as a warning of what once was. Vietnam memorized by a cold, dark solemn marble wall. Korea - bronze men with somber faces walking over a small piece or rice patty. Each yearning to be somewhere else; this is not a worthy end. Sorrow lies here, life hurts the nation’s wound is opened and healed. It is in these iron and granite shadows that we heal as a nation; as a nation we admit that we are not superhuman; we have flaws. The outcome’s monument should raise high with the laurels of victory each, gleaming in rays of sunlight. Its mood lightened by the feelings of victory yet, hushed in respect. This is not a “he said” or “she said” it is one that will affect the world stage. Sadly this issue is one that will fall victim to partisan politics but, one that needs to be looked at with a broader view.
Corwin Haught
February 27, 2006 at 3:19 am
48Congrats on winning this week’s WWDTM!
Any chance of getting Ken Jennings on as a regular panelist? He was hot!
Maximum Bob
February 27, 2006 at 3:36 am
49Anonymous, as someone who came of age during the Vietnam war, I can’t convey to you the feeling of sadness–not to mention deja vu–that came over me when I read your note.
I know it’s considered bad form to draw parallels between Vietnam and Iraq. But, please, spend some time Googling “Vietnamization” and “peace with honor.” It’s bad enough that we’ve made serious mistakes in Iraq; it’s even worse that we’ve made the same mistakes before, and apparently learned nothing.
Sharon
February 27, 2006 at 8:40 am
50Anonymous,
I also grew up during the Vietnam War. It was a disgrace how this country treated its Vietnam vets. I’m not referring to the mythical ’spitting’ instances, I’m referring to the inadequate care–physical, mental, social–our government gave them when they came home.
The same thing is happening now with returning Iraqi vets. Sure, they’re getting their new prosthetic arms and legs, but their mental traumas are being inadequately treated, by all reports. This is not a new problem. Societies throughout history have been stumped by the problem of reintegrating their warriors into peacetime society after the fighting stops. All the more reason not to send them there until after all other alternatives have been exhausted. They were not, in this case.
Please don’t make the mistake of conflating ’support for the troops’ with ’support for the war.’ They are two separate things. It is indeed honorable to serve one’s country. All the more reason not to waste those lives on a dishonorable venture such as Iraq.
You don’t say whether you think we got out of Vietnam “with honor.” Does it really matter? We declared “victory” and got out.
RRRRyan
February 27, 2006 at 11:36 am
51Sharon, Dick’s “accident” was most likely an “accident” as there was no motive. Ted’s “accident” also had a motive, embarrassing scandal, and impropriety (what else is new?) all tied up in it. Hardly a “they did it first” thing. It’s funny that “they did it first” keeps coming up, so the standards are higher for conservatives because? I know this one! Because, conservatives have higher standards! It’s funny you compare those two “accidents”, they are not comparable. It must bring you great comfort though to rationalize a comparison there, if you can get yourself to believe it then your friends actually become less than a despicable excuse for a bag-of-guts.
Anonymous
February 27, 2006 at 11:44 am
52Supporting the troops and supporting the war are we different things. However, to protest at the funerals of those who have fallen for the country is not appropriate. I have family who has protested this war in DC. I still respect their views and opinion. Please understand this - I think we are giving somewhat (though this is questionable) good care right now but, the Veteran’s Administration is being stripped in the budget and the needs for other programs are so big. The only real solution is either to raise taxes or to cut budget in other areas. It is not fair to troops who have not died to be left in the cold. Only a sound fiscal policy and one that funds entirely the needs of our country is the answer. We cannot spend money that we don’t have but, we must use the money that we do have on the prolonged care of our troops but, in the field and injured at home. We, by going into this conflict, must uphold the promises that we give to our servicemen and women to care for them when then return wounded or uninjured.
Sharon. I am not talking about weather Iraq was dishonorable or honorable. I am talking about the future and the high probability that this “experiment,” if it can be called such, to be labeled in the next election. The fact is that we are stuck there weather you agreed with president or not. Let’s not label but, look at how we can withdraw “with honor.” Must we must leave and let the government fall into civil war - no. This is my understanding of peace “with honor.” But, the reality is that we cannot stop this event. This is why I mentioned the need for more regional players and Iraqi troops. Let us look to history once again. Ford, in withdrawing the troops from the country, did not promise material support. South Vietnamese troops who were loyal to the government tanks’ and planes’ were destroyed leaving no replacements. The South’s government fell. This is not honorable. I have been there in the past year and I question the worth of going there and taking up France’s position in this conflict. Some of the region’s development and major FDI inflows are coming from the United States and the irony is that finally years after are conflict our relations are being healed by economics. Vietnam and Iraq are in indeed two separate issues. One is history and the other is a current event that seems to end in no other solution then a prisoner’s dilemma.
Maximum Bob I want to respond to your comments by saying two things. First, I also mentioned Korea as well as Vietnam specifically, the monuments in DC. This is provocative imagery and is not meant to say Iraq = Vietnam. Secondly, these three instances are three different wars and are not, not I repeat, the same thing. Each has it own challenges that must be looked at separately. What is critical to understand in my opinion is that we see what is happening now and what the road forward is not look back and re-hash and argue with what was.
I answer you and Sharon as I respect you opinions and what to clarify what I meant.
cooper
February 27, 2006 at 11:52 am
53Anonymous, you said… “I feel that if I were called it is my duty as an American to go over and fight. It is the duty off all Americans to serve their country if called upon.” I’m sorry, but who do you think will be calling you to fight - your country? Your good luck is that our country no longer has a draft. So it’s your conscience you are hearing and you’re lucky, because you have a choice. If you’re smart, you won’t join-up, but stay in school and get your degree. If you’re needing money and seem to have no options, then you might join. You’re right to worry about your friends, but stay the hell out of that quagmire (Vietnam lingo, sorry). If you’re curious about what it’s really like, go to a VA hospital - there’s one in every congressional district - and talk to the soldiers there. They’ll set you straight. And if you’re not up to that, then let me tell you that it’s good to love your country, but your government doesn’t give a rat’s ass about you. Soldiers are a commodity and there’s plenty more where you come from. Keep your sanity and keep your limbs. This is a pointless and manufactured war, cooked up by foolish men and it’s killing our children and looting our treasury. It is not addressing the problem of terrorism, but making it much worse. Don’t be a sap.
Sharon
February 27, 2006 at 11:56 am
54Ryan, read my post again. It was not I who compared the two events.
Anonymous, it was not Ford who pulled the troops out of Vietnam, it was Nixon. That was the “secret plan” that won him re-election in 1972.
Sharon
February 27, 2006 at 12:15 pm
55Here’s a good read: Articles of Impeachment Adopted by the Committee on the Judiciary
RRRRyan
February 27, 2006 at 12:22 pm
56I believe it was you who referred to the comparison as a “they did it first” argument. Since I was not clear I will be more blunt about it. You are wrong, if anything that argument would be “they did much, much worse”.
I’m not sure how I didn’t get that across the first time. The post was entirely based on the “they did it first” theme and even quotes you twice to that point. I must be really bad at making my point. I keep getting accused of not reading posts, but it would appear you didn’t read mine.
Are you one of those “speed” readers. That stuff is silly, you cannot glean more than a glimpse of the actual content. I know a few folks that fancy themselves speed readers, claiming to have read this article or that book. You cannot have an intelligible conversation on the topic with them since they barely read the lines more-less between them aka the concepts the groups of words as a whole are meant to relay.
Maybe accusing someone of not reading your words is a convenient way to avoid the actual topic? That’s kinda silly, just say “I have nothing more to say”. You kinda sounded like Maximum Bob and his claims that what he wrote wasn’t what he meant but continues to sing the same tune every time he types.
RRRRyan
February 27, 2006 at 12:24 pm
57This should be simple enough:
http://oldbluejacket.com/General_Patton_Message.htm
Scooby
February 27, 2006 at 1:42 pm
58RRRRyan,
That link in your last post was nothing but vacuous vitriol. Please read the last several months of FA for the debunking of every argument made in that flash.
Adam had it so right in his post last month Back in the 90’s We Were So Cool. The best solution (and perhaps the only solution) to militant groups so fanatical that they are willing to die for the cause is to let them govern their own nation-state. You can blow yourself up in your own parliament only so many times!
Regarding the current state of Iraq, I can only say that I am profoundly sad. And I can’t even say how profoundly sad I am. It’s that profound.
Our soldiers have been maimed and killed with no real progress up to this point - lives lost and destroyed. I cannot see the point. And we’re now approaching the number killed on 9/11, and the world sure feels alot less secure to me now.
Maximum Bob
February 27, 2006 at 2:01 pm
59RRRRyan, buddy! You’re acknowledging my posts again, sort of! That’s so, uh, exciting!
“You kinda sounded like Maximum Bob and his claims that what he wrote wasn’t what he meant…”
I never claimed that what I wrote wasn’t what I meant, but I have claimed repeatedly that you are unable to discern the meaning of my words. As I do again, right now.
Maximum Bob
February 27, 2006 at 2:16 pm
60Anonymous, I wasn’t suggesting that you were equating Iraq and Vietnam. I was doing the equating, at least in a limited way. The “peace with honor” thing that people are desperately searching for in Iraq is exactly what Nixon said he wanted in Vietnam. Unfortunately, while he continued to search for it, many good men and women died.
And this notion of turning things over to the Iraqis mirrors the Vietnamization program that we tried to pull off in South Vietnam. Unfortunately, there was no way to convince the South Vietnamese to give their lives for a government they didn’t believe in. We could have stayed in Vietnam another 2 years or 20, and the North Vietnamese still would have rolled up the south like a window shade.
Finally, I have to caution against writing off a study of the past as meaningless rehashing. While it would be wrong to say that Iraq is exactly the same as Vietnam, it would be just as wrong to ignore their commonalities, and not learn from what happened almost 40 years ago. That over 50,000 Americans died in that conflict is truly tragic; for that many to have died and for us to have learned nothing from it would be unforgivable.
Stephen
February 27, 2006 at 2:21 pm
61I find it encouraging that RED states are finding amusement in WWDTM. Maybe they are starting to wake up? As another of the resident Mormons, on the site anyway, don’t live in UT anymore, I would say we generally have a pretty good since of humor. I’m not be that funny myself, my wife will verify, but I really appreciate funny!!
Sharon
February 27, 2006 at 2:26 pm
62A transcript of Eisenhower’s “military-industrial complex” speech. Eisenhower, we should all recall, was an actual military man, not a pretend one.
Harold
February 27, 2006 at 2:44 pm
63Anonymous, your mention of the monuments to Vietnam and Korea back in comment #47 got me thinking: what will the memorial to the men and women who served in Iraq look like? I am no designer, but whenever I think of it I can only envisage an area full of rubble and broken glass and shrapnel - a dangerous place to visit. No monument will ever look like that, but it seems to me that to do less would be to downplay the incredible level of danger in which our forces are immersed, a war where the battlefront is in every direction at once.
I suppose we should focus on resolving the issue of Iraq before we think about monuments. Still, monuments are easier to think about.
Siobhan
February 27, 2006 at 2:52 pm
64Remember there are plenty of blues in the red states and vice versa. And besides, WWDTM has universal appeal, right?
east coast dave
February 27, 2006 at 3:02 pm
65“It’s funny that “they did it first” keeps coming up, so the standards are higher for conservatives because? I know this one! Because, conservatives have higher standards! ”
RRRRyan, that’s so true- conservatives won’t even THINK about helping you unless your net worth is at least mid six figures!
whatever, dude.
Kim
February 27, 2006 at 3:09 pm
66RRRRyan, I’m not sure why you think the Ted Kennedy thing is so much worse than the Dick Cheney thing.
Both of them used potentially lethal machinery (car, gun) under the influence of alcohol.
Both had an accident. As far as I know, there is no reason to think that either of these was intentional, but I suppose it’s possible that either/both could have been.
Both of them failed to report the accident in a timely manner. Was it because both men wanted to give their blood alcohol content some time to decrease? Perhaps. I don’t suppose we’ll ever know.
Sounds like a pretty similar situation to me, except Cheney’s victim was lucky enough not to die.
Ann
February 27, 2006 at 3:14 pm
67Great Lobster, RRRRyan, that link was so, so…stupid. That’s the only word for it. I officially give up on you.
Maximum Bob
February 27, 2006 at 4:05 pm
68Army recruiting’s kinda slow; maybe cartoon generals are the next big thing.
RRRRyan
February 27, 2006 at 4:44 pm
69Kim, I’ll keep it short, Cheney wasn’t sleeping with the victim of his “accident”. Oh, and his victim didn’t die, and finally… one Beer several hours previous does not equate to legally drunk as was the case with Mr K. It’s okay though, I do understand the obsessive need for liberals to equate the faults of their leaders with the faults of my leaders. It helps get over the reality of it.
If those look similar to most folks then therein lies our greatest divide, common sense.
Ann, the fact that I enjoy your posts doesn’t mean I ever thought there was “hope” to give up on, so don’t even pretend you ever thought any more of me. Everyone is so sure that if Hussein had another 4 years in power that there would be no more victims, hence the “futility of this war” theme a good portion of this thread talks about. Right now the estimate is Hussein’s victims numbered 43,000 per year. So 2,000 military men of honor, valor, and heroism, traded for 172,000 a significant portion of which were innocent civilians. Not futile, not a waste, not dishonorable. Our soldiers ARE HEROES!
Don’t even ask “who” is talking about futility, Scooby for one “Our soldiers have been maimed and killed with no real progress up to this point”, as well as the parallels being made to Vietnam, and “All the more reason not to waste those lives on a dishonorable venture such as Iraq.”…
I actually found my link vulgar and crass, but the message is dead on. Hussein was interested in breaking his own records too, he wanted to kill Jews and Americans too. They were harder to get to, but he was trying all means he had available. There is nothing “futile” about this war except some of the outrageous arguments against it.
RRRRyan
February 27, 2006 at 4:44 pm
70bob, that was funny.
Jimmie Keyes
February 27, 2006 at 6:00 pm
71Sure it’s our fault, it always is our fault!
I was up all night fighting with the anchor over the money we’ve gotta spend testing the floor tiles in the ground floor apartment of our home on the bay. It was flooded when Katrina wended her way by on the way to New Orleans.
FEMA inspected our abode because someone, we don’t really know who, turned us in. FEMA requires floor tiles that might be subjected to flood waters pass some army corps test of immersion in salt water for 72 hours. We have to have our tiles tested and it costs dough.
How is that my fault you ask? Easy, our next-door neighbor is an alcoholic, someone, not me, turned him into the EPS for filling wetlands when he wanted to make more parking spaces for his drunken pals. The anchor thinks the neighbor thinks it was me who turned him in even though it wasn’t (I didn’t get to the phone quickly enough). It is, therefore, logical to assume he turned us in and so it’s my fault that FEMA might require us to test the tiles and if it does we will have to spend the money to do it.
Certainly all would agree with that syllogism?
So no one can possibly disagree with the Republican charge that liberals have brought about this disastrous war, Katrina, hunting, thingee. Right?
jimmiekeyes
Sharon
February 27, 2006 at 6:10 pm
72We’ll never know if Cheney was legally drunk or not, will we? At his age, with all the drugs he takes for his heart condition, one beer might be enough to elevate his blood alcohol beyond the legal limit. But we’ll never know.
ice weasel
February 27, 2006 at 6:29 pm
73I refuse to take rrrrrrrrrrryyyaaannnn seriously. Sorry.
Anonymous
February 27, 2006 at 6:51 pm
74Sharon. Thanks for the correction. You got me there. However, I hope my response answers your question.
Cooper. I’m not a sap. I have every right to be concerned for my country and my brothers. It is true that they are keeping me here; I have the utmost appreciation for them. However, are we to leave our troops “out to dry?” You should look at Maximum Bob’s finally paragraph in post 60. If you think that there are people there in VA hospitals that do not care so much about their buddies that they want to go back and they see this as a pointless war then you are wrong. In truth there are probably both. Some as cynical about our country as you and those who want to see that the mission is finished. These young men so believe in our country they are optimistic that it will care for them. Maybe if we found a way to actually care for them then we would not betray their youthful exuberance and love of country.
Maximum Bob, in response to your comment I wanted to say a couple of things. I agree we need to look at our lessons and learn. However, in the political finger pointing that is Washington, DC this is a fallacy. I just wish that a group in the middle, both Democrats and Republicans, will speak up with regard to this war and try to figure out how we can effectively pass the torch and remove ourselves out of this quagmire. Call this naive if you will but, do not doubt that this will be a factor in the next election (it will be highly partisan and there will be equal muck on both sides). It is certain that we don’t want another Vietnam nor do we want to have a new national government tear itself apart along sectional lines. The results would be disastrous for both our country and our troops.
Hot Tub Tommy
February 27, 2006 at 6:53 pm
75After following the link from #57, I must say I don’t look so very dangerous anymore, do I? Now, I’m in a tough primary battle next Tuesday with a rich Republican (yeah, I know, since we’re all rich, it’s hard to tell us apart), so I need your last minute financial help. Send *Cash* to Thomas Delay c/o Sugarland, TX! Overnight it to me in FedEx’s biggest box. Bruno photo-shopped some pictures of my opponent in the stall with the young heffers and I don’t think he was checking for worms, if you catch my drift! We have to buy airtime and billboards NOW!!
Keep the money coming. If I lose on Tuesday, I’ll still need all you can send to insentivise the various jury pools to my way of thinking. Help out your buddy Tom right now in my moment of desperate need and I won’t forget! We’re elephants, remember? I do! I remember my friends and I remember my enemies.
Yours in Christ, Representative (for the time being) Thomas Delay (R, Tx.)
cooper
February 27, 2006 at 7:49 pm
76“Maybe if we found a way to actually care for them then we would not betray their youthful exuberance and love of country.” Anonymous, we have a way to take care of the wounded vets from all our recent wars, but your president is giving it away to the richest 1% in the form of tax cuts.
Pete IVDL
February 27, 2006 at 8:05 pm
77Isn’t it strange how some folks think a different war is somehow different to the war(s) before?
“Don’t equate Vietnam with Iraq” seems to be a common response to people who think out loud about the similarities between these wars. My question is, why not equate Iraq with Vietnam?
Are the bullets killing American kids in Iraq somehow “worse” or “better” than the bullets that killed all the American kids in Vietnam? No?
Are the Iraq vets getting better medical treatment (they do seem to be slightly more welcome socially than 30 years ago) than the Vietnam vets? No! Because of this administration’s budget cuts, your kids have to pay for their own hospitalisation and medical treatment.
So is the Iraq war the same as the Vietnam war? No, it’s far worse. Stupider “reason” for going, worse physical damage to the combatants, worse treatment of injuries, still no “honourable retreat” in sight.
Sorry, but war kills kids who should know better, makes the rich richer, while the poor are left to mourn their terrible losses. Another generation lost and maimed, anyone?
Meanwhile, the political elite bleat endlessly about “sacrifice” and “honour”, and do all they can to equate hate of the war with hate of the troops fighting it - and some people believe them. Unfortunately, these are the same people who honestly and earnestly believed there were “weapons of mass destruction”, and that Valerie Plame deserved to be outed, and that Osama Bin Hidin flew into the World Trade Centre.
P.T. Barnum was right - you can fool some of the people all of the time.
Anonymous
February 27, 2006 at 8:05 pm
78Cooper. Do not assume that since I’m a Republican that I agree with everything that the President proposes. This is exactly the finger pointing that gets us nowhere in Washington and pisses me off (If you took the time to read all my posts then you would understand that I hate partisanship). Now, there is a difference between cutting taxes and simplifying the tax code (by the way the tax cuts should not be made permanent). If you want to have a discussion about economics then we can. But, do not use my own words against me to change the subject. Moreover, I took the time to respond to you concerns regarding my opinion and explained it ever more. By shifting it we have done nothing. The fact of the matter is that he is our President not yours or mine. You can hate him or love him or even not give a darn but, you must respect both sides. Blind hatred does nothing to move the country forward.
Pete IVDL
February 27, 2006 at 8:21 pm
79On the WTC thing, I recently saw an interview with an anonymous American as part of one of our satirical news shows. It was, as far as I can tell, a real interview, not set up or staged… Aaaaanyway, the interviewee expressed her surprise that Osama Bin Laden escaped from the wreckage of the towers alive, but she was glad that he was in custody… She had obviously confused OBL with the al-Faridhi guy. I didn’t think that was possible. Any Australian who was that stupid would be elected.
Pete IVDL
February 27, 2006 at 9:05 pm
80Oh, my bad, that’s Moussaoui, not al Faridhi. D’oh. I’ll run for the lurkers’ lounge now…
Julia
February 27, 2006 at 9:17 pm
81Sadly, Pete, it’s more likely she confused bin Ladin for Saddam Hussein. Faridhi is a character on Deep Space Nine, right, and Moussaoui…um…president of some …um …well ….
Julia
lurker dave
February 27, 2006 at 9:33 pm
82We now have Allison and Pete in the lounge, this is exciting.
I’m tending bar tonight Pete, what’s your poison?
Keep the paypal donations coming people I need to skim enough to pay for the Grey Goose.
Stephen
February 27, 2006 at 10:22 pm
83RRRyan,
Glad you found that site offensive, I was worried about you for a minute. Let me also say that if that is what goes on in fraternities, sororities, and academy training, glad I never got involved.
I think you are making a common mistake. I don’t think anyone here doubts our troops are heroes, but that doesn’t mean they belong in Iraq. I have a good friend who has been over there, both Iraq and Afghanistan, a couple times and she is convinced that we can help over there. I have enormous respect for her and what she is trying to do. That still doesn’t make the war a good idea.
Anonymous, - I agree we need to work together. As a member of neither party, I am always disappointed with partisanship. Right now neither side seems to be trying hard to get together. I will say that I don’t think the White House’s attitude of; “No we are right and we don’t need to discuss it with anyone” is helping.
Stephen
February 27, 2006 at 10:25 pm
84Sorry Adam, I have always liked the “Salt Lake isn’t the end of the world, but you can see it from here” t-shirt. Good job on the show, is it just me or do you seem to win a lot? Some kind of liberal conspiracy, perhaps?
cooper
February 27, 2006 at 10:42 pm
85Umm… Anonymous, I’m not assuming what you think, I’m quoting what you write. For instance - “Blind hatred does nothing to move the country forward.” Neither, my friend, does blind allegiance. Just saying…
RRRRyan
February 28, 2006 at 12:03 am
86cooper, do you have any idea how much “rich” people pay even after the tax cuts? It is sick, by the time you count all the deductions I cannot take because I make too much you are talking out of your rear.
Average persons taxes:
Child tax credit, $3000 each.
IRA deductible deposit $4000 each filing jointly.
School loan interest
Home loan interest
charitable donations - all deductible.
15% tax bracket.
“rich person”:
Child tax credit, $250 each.
IRA - you don’t need this you’re “rich”
School loan interest - not deductible
Home loan interest - YES!
charitable donations - not all deductible
30%+ Yes, that’s twice the tax with nearly none of the deductions.
I’m not that “rich”, my wife and I file jointly and it amounts to a slightly above average income each. Despite being not that “rich” I will be paying the federal government more than a lot of you folks make in a year.
That’s BOGUS and all of the belly aching about “tax cuts for the rich” is BOGUS!
Maybe this will shed some light on it for you: http://www.chrisvschris.com/wp/the-truth-about-taxes
Just to give you an idea, I just got a late 1099 for $3000. It increased my tax liability by $1200. Drop this John Kerry smear rhetoric. Our tax system is so skewed we’ll have to have a couple dozen more “tax cuts for the rich” to even approach fairness.
RRRRyan
February 28, 2006 at 12:04 am
87FLAT TAX!!! FLAT TAX!!!
siobhan
February 28, 2006 at 1:25 am
88Stephen, a variant that rolls around in my head often these days is “America 2006 - not the end of the dream, but you can see it from here”.
David
February 28, 2006 at 1:43 am
89FLAT EARTH! FLAT EARTH!
And of course the war on Viet Nam and the war on Iraq War are different. One was a rice paddy based fuck up in which we were an aggressor hell bent on imposing our political will on a bunch of orientals, whereas Iraq is a desert based fuck up in which we are an aggressor hell bent on imposing our political will on a bunch of arabs.
The only honor that can be achieved in either case is the individual honor of a soldier who makes a moral decision. NOTHING ELSE about war is honorable. It’s an ugly, murderous, immoral human activity in which sometimes one side is justified in repelling the ruthless onslaught against human decency by the other side (like when the native Americans tried to repel the European invaders, although they themselves were not above similar behavior before the Europeans got here, or when the collective fuck ups of the earlier 20th century arrived at the uber fuck up with the moustache, the silly-assed strutting fuck up, and the imperious, tradition bound fuck up, with the consequence that the not so fucked up had to band together and stop the uber fuck ups - but wait, one of the band of not so fucked ups was really fucked up, so we all had to practice duck and cover, also known as bend over, put your head between your legs, and kiss your ass goodbye ).
It’s sheer nonsense to argue that because some idiot who weaseled his way into the White House initiated a homicidal mission from God, we must honor that decision or agree to participate in it with our lives. Fuck that shit.
Good one, siobhan. Distressingly appropriate.
Dave D
February 28, 2006 at 10:07 am
90Right now the estimate is Hussein’s victims numbered 43,000 per year. So 2,000 military men of honor, valor, and heroism, traded for 172,000 a significant portion of which were innocent civilians. Not futile, not a waste, not dishonorable.
Where does that estimate come from Rrrryan? Is it credible? You compare that figure with the number of American troops killed, but ignore the losses of our allies, and give not even a thought? to the thousands of Iraqis who have died as a consequence. I’d have to say that your comparison is about as valid as your statement that Conservatives have higher standards.
Siobhan
February 28, 2006 at 12:11 pm
91RRRRRRRR, if you want your dreams to come true, you need to repeat it THREE times while clicking your heels together. (You look great in red sequined pumps, I have to say!)
RRRRyan
February 28, 2006 at 12:37 pm
92It is the Iraqi estimate that is quoted all over the place:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/specialreports/iraqgrav es/s_169995.html
I did the math. 1.3 million victims over 30 years. 1,300,000/30 = 43,000.
Ironically, or not, 1.3 million is also the number of people sent to Auschwitz during it’s 4 years in use.
You are quite right, I meant no disrespect by forgetting the Iraqis that have died. I defy you to find 43,000 victims per year. In fact that would be not enough since assuming Hussein would have continued his pattern for another 20 years you’ll have to account for 860,000 victims over whatever period it takes for this war to end.
Not futile, not “a waste”, our soldiers are HEROES, or nation should be proud to have helped so many people.
Even if you use the most conservative estimate of 300,000 that is 10,000 per year. So 40,000 rescued and counting! If he was as good at hiding his victims as he was with hiding his WMDs we may never know.
RRRRyan
February 28, 2006 at 12:40 pm
93Here’s an especially familiar scenario:
“The massacre happened between April 6 and May 7 (1991). They brought them in buses everyday, three times a day — 120 to 150 people. … Women, children and elderly people, too. …We heard them talking and screaming when they shot them.
They used bulldozers to dig the holes. They brought them here alive, and they pushed them in the holes and they shot them. … Some were blindfolded.” Some “were buried alive” in the 15 holes uncovered here, according to Rafid Al-Husseini, an Iraqi doctor who examined many of the corpses. Al-Husseini helped identified two-thirds of the 3,115 bodies exhumed to date.”
Landis
February 28, 2006 at 3:38 pm
94Hey RRRRYan, I do assume that you’re spearheading the conservative effort to get us into Sudan and stop the genocide there. It’s funny but the silence from the conservatives on that issue is almost deafening. “Never again”
nato
February 28, 2006 at 3:47 pm
95Okay, ignoring all the really depressing stuff and jumping back to the Iraq War (damn, did we really declare war against Iraq, or is this another police action? Or does the “war against terror/terrorism/reality” cover every incursion we make against sovereign states?) memorial: How about we bronze up a bunch of kevlar vests and use those for a memorial? The irony (no pun intended!) seems somewhat appropriate, since we not only are charging troops for their vests when they are damaged in use (WTF?!), but are slow to provide them in the first place. Surely if we can afford to set aside $25 million for a fish hatchery in the defense appropriations bill this year, we could match that and bronze up a few vests that soldiers’d just waste getting them all flakked up anyway.
Stephen
February 28, 2006 at 3:50 pm
96Siobahn,
I don’t know if I find that funny or not. I wish it was funny.
RRRyan,
No problem with a flat tax as long as everyone pays it and there are no loopholes to wiggle out of. Never happen though, the big business White House would never do that to their wealthy friends.
Murray
February 28, 2006 at 3:50 pm
97Who could have seen this civil war coming?
During the lead up to the war one commentator on NPR said “When you open the doors to a prison you would think that the prisoners would celebrate and go home, but that is not what happens. They settle old scores”. This is what happened in the former Yugoslovia, and is happening now in Iraq. We were foolish enough to get caught in the middle.
Powell said “If you break it you own it.” What I see is old W trying to put the pieces back on the shelf and slinking out.
Murray
February 28, 2006 at 4:00 pm
98I think that the memorial to Bush’s War should be a used car bomb.
RRRRyan
February 28, 2006 at 4:05 pm
99Murray, I sure hope we don’t get “caught in the middle”. It would be hard to choose a side as the two big playground bullies are determined to slug it out. We should step aside, let them fight, and perhaps move back in when the smoke clears. We certainly do not want to see Hussein’s more evil alter ego taking over.
Isn’t it ironic that they can blow up each other’s mosques (and the children in them) but demand the hands of the man who drew a picture of Muhammad. The configuration of their gray matter leaves one wondering how they even function.
RRRRyan
February 28, 2006 at 4:07 pm
100Stephen, you seem to have missed one of the points of my post. The wealthy so much more in taxes than the average American it would be hard to make a change that wouldn’t benefit them.
Again: http://www.chrisvschris.com/wp/the-truth-about-taxes
Stephen
February 28, 2006 at 4:17 pm
101RRRyan,
Uhm, All your post said was “FLAT TAX!, FLAT TAX!” didn’t see any points or links. It seems logical to me that Rich people will pay more taxes, they make more money. Maybe I am misunderstanding, a flat tax to me is everyone pay x% or their net worth? Maybe what they earned that year? That seems fair to me. Is that not what Flat Tax means?
It is hard to see why the rich 5% in the country would want that.
Stephen
February 28, 2006 at 4:31 pm
102Sorry, make that “oF their net worth.” Adam do we get a 2-hour rule?
RRRRyan
February 28, 2006 at 6:18 pm
103It would be a flat x% yes. So considering the range is roughly between 0-50% depending on the source and amount of income my version of a flat tax would be everyone pays 20% and therefore I (and the others in my bracket and above) would pay 33%+ less in taxes.
That way we would never again have to hear the chant “tax cuts for the rich”. Cuts are cuts, increases are increases, 20% too low? Okay, fine move it up to 25%! It would take a while to get to what I’m paying now.
I’ve been poor, poor people have it really good when it comes to taxes. Too good in my opinion. Especially if you are a lazy, unemployed, single mom, on welfare. How does someone who pays no taxes qualify for a return? … That’s how.
siobhan
March 1, 2006 at 12:14 am
104Be sure to sock it to all of those lazy-ass bastards working two minimum wage jobs with no benefits. Yeah, those poor people have it really good when it comes to taxes, but they have it pretty shitty when it comes to housing, health care, decent schools, safe neighborhoods or the possibility of retirement.
Ryan, you should be embarrassed to call yourself a Christian. Seriously.
cooper
March 1, 2006 at 12:21 am
105siobhan, yeah, I can see the Irish. You write pretty when you’re angry!
hedera
March 1, 2006 at 12:38 am
106Getting back to war, I’ve never heard a better short definition than the one that opened one of the episodes of Jacob Bronowski’s Ascent of Man:
War is organized theft.
And if you’ve never seen this series, filmed in the 70s, I just found to my delight that it’s available on DVD - for a whacking price, but available. Check the Wikipedia article on the title. The cinematography in this series is outstanding.
Murray
March 1, 2006 at 10:15 am
107Adam, maybe you were wrong. The president hasn’t started to blame Democrats, he’s blaming the Iraqis. It’s up to them to decide if they want unity or chaos. I guess if they decide wrong, we will have no choice but to leave.
cooper
March 1, 2006 at 10:36 am
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