Analysis: Cheney Gores non-Quail in Bush

While I agree that this incident is a distraction from more important matters, (not to be callous, but the world could do with out more lawyers) this is proof positive that the current administration believes that they are above the law.

I don’t care what state you are in; you shoot somebody accidentally and you are obligated to report it to the authorities. If you don’t, you’re a fleeing felon. Not only that, but a fleeing felon leaving the state that the crime was committed in makes it a case for the FBI since interstate borders have been crossed. But that is the law for the rest of us; who knows what applies anymore to Washingtonians?

But I guess that is my naivete; thinking that the leopards of all the lies that have been piled up would change their spots. Oh yeah, they were hunting bird fowl.

You know, this is really 6 year old ethics. If you do something wrong; spill the milk, break a plate, put a baseball through a window, shot your hunting partner, whatever… you tell the people responsible and you try to make it right. What would your parents tell you if they found out a day later that it was you that put a baseball through the neighbor’s window? Personally, there would have been a swat involved as well as a serious raiding of my savings account to pay for the window. At least Cheney had the good grace to call when he found out his buddy had the heart attack. I wonder who is paying for the hospital stay. Did the ranch have insurance?

This is another example of trying to hide something making you look worse. Wire tapping, misrepresenting intelligence, leaking classified information, and now shooting someone. I’m fairly sure if Cheney had done everything by the book, reporting to the correct authorities etc., the story never would have blown up to this point.

WF- What is your take on canned hunts. According to the article link above, they shot like 400 birds? Doesn’t that drive you nuts?

The Yahoo News story refers to both Armstrong and Whittington as a “Republican stalwart”. Do those two words always have to go together now? And again with the “peppered.” That’s something you do to a steak, not to a person.

If Whittington dies, do you think they’ll impeach Cheney for negligent homicide?

But Auros, who would run the country then?

According to Molly Ivins, Whittington is one of the more liberal of Texas Republicans. In particular he tried to do something about the enormous amounts of money that Texas spends on prisons and prisoners–vastly more per prisoner than per public school pupil. Maybe this was a warning shot to other liberal Republicans–see what heppens when you cross us.

ice weasel, I hear where you’re coming from. I think the story is so captivating because it captures so perfectly in microcosm the whole sorry history of this regime. It’s a metaphor come to life. Here we’ve got a guy who’s had 5 deferrments, 4 heart attacks, two DWIs, who told a Senator to go fuck himself, who thought that Iraq would be a cakewalk–he goes out “hunting” a bunch of farm-raised quails that can barely fly and that probably think the hunters are coming over to feed them, he disregards the primary rules of hunting, his first call after the accident is not to the EMTs but to Karl Rove, he keeps the police away for 24 hours, he downplays the whole incident (notice how *every* news outlet uses the same words, “peppered” and “sprayed”, to describe the shooting) and he tries to blame the victim.

Replace just a few words here and there, and it’s very nearly the story of George and Dick’s Excellent Adventure in [non]Governing. I’ll bet Rove and his spinmeisters haven’t had a wink of sleep since Saturday. No amount of hand-waving can make this one go away.

How do these guys get away with this crap?

Why does America allow such colossal incompetence and arrogance?

This Mr. Whittington’s injuries must have been much more serious than we originally thought. According to Scott McClellan, the number one concern of the hunting party and the Secret Service was to make sure that Mr. Whittington’s medical needs were addressed. I guess each one in the group took two holes and applied pressure to stop the bleeding. Perhaps some of the offending shot also ricocheted off an inopportunely placed rock and punctured the many radiators in the vehicles present. So they made a litter and carried him out over 35 miles of Texas scrub, applying pressure the whole time, and stopping to check for a cell or satellite phone signal every hour or so. No wonder it took so long to get the word out. And aren’t we ashamed for doubting.

Marcus, did you like that article? So let me get this straight, it’s okay to shove a hundred head of cattle into a dirt pit of about 2000 square feet to live their whole life only to have a spear driven through their spinal cord, and don’t even talk about chicken farms, but if they stock premium acreage with game birds that would never survive wildly in such a quantity anyway it is immoral? I’ll leave the 3700 human babies killed everyday out of this.

I don’t hunt stocked farms because I’m not interested, but I really don’t think anyone but vegans can claim high ground if you take that route.

Oh sweet, I knew sooner or later rrryan would dribble out something about abortion factories or baby murders. Thankfully, rrryan, you continue to be a cartoon.

Yes rrryan, a cartoon. Because only an animated character could compare the various elements you have, and mean it.

And thanks, Siobhan,for the Keith Knight link.Seattletammy and I have passed it on.

Dear Mr. Water Fowler, my daddy just read me a story about how Mr. Bush is going to take the Bald Eagle off the Endangered Species list. I’m worried that hunters will soon start buyin them stamps for their huntin lie sense that they’ve been keepin in the special vault up in Washington, DC. Daddy says they was printed back in late 2000 after the new vice president took charge and they’ve been waiting for this moment ever since. He say peoples that has this stamp can shoot anything that moves (he says, “even sum PEOPLE”, but that can’t be right, can it?). He say to “these cretins a fuckin’ boid is a fuckin’ boid” and a Bald Eagle is just the wall dekoration they’ve been needin. I’m not sure I spelled everytin corectlly. I don’t know what some of those words mean, plus Daddy was steamed and not making purfek cents. Ples don’t shoot no Bald Eagles, Mr. Water Fowler, I’d like to sho my childuns them when they are my age.

Love, Timmy (7 years old today!)

RRRRyan, what some of us find offensive about canned hunts is that the participants call it “sport” when it’s not much more than a trip to Safeway, albeit with fresher meat.

“Timmy”, cheap shot (no pun intended) at WF. I disagree with him on a whole lotta stuff, but responsible duck hunters have been one of the major driving forces for habitat protection in this county. The most spectacular concentration of bald eagles I’ve seen was at the Klamath Basin in California, and they’re drawn to the waterfowl refuges there - paid for by duck hunters (and those of us birders who buy duck stamps). They understand that it’s crucial to protect the habitat so that the ducks have a place to go, and that benefits a lot of other wildlife. Contrast that with deer hunters who want to keep deer populations artificially high in many areas, which is destroying the habitat that they and other wildlife depend on.

Seattle Dan,

Anti-intellectualism might be the deepest single thread in American culture. Have a book from 30+ years ago (it’s somewhere…), Anti-intellectualism in America. Anti-intellectualism seemed to me to have softened in the South when I was young, I think because of the post-WWII focus on higher education for returning vets (a guess). Even McCarthyism was generally rejected, at least in Winter Park. I know that the basically conservative people around me wanted us to go to college, learn, and learn to think for ourselves. Even the Southern Baptist seminaries went somewhat progressive. At least knowledge and thinking gained ground, and the presidents of the seminaries reflected it (think Jimmy Carter for a model of an enlightened Southern Baptist).

Then the reactionary forces struck back with a vengeance and the seminaries were purged, restoring “Bible inerrancy” and the rest of the retrograde Southern Baptist mantra. Texas is the number one Southern Baptist state, and I think that is where the driving force for the “purification” was centered.

Another factor was the extent of the push back, at least in the South, against all of the intellectual and social awakening of the 60s, with parents apparently not wanting their children to be “corrupted” by college professors. I got a lot of that at my community college in the later 70s and into the 80s, especially once Reagan took office, where I had perfectly sincere adult students from the conservative faith community expressing concern that community college students straight out of high school were still children not yet ready for intellectual freedom.
It startled me at first, because I had not heard that from the Baptists I was around before I grew away from the church.

I think the stem cell dilemma, together with the fact that W could get more than 30% of the vote, establish America as the most anti-intellectual of the “advanced” nations. We seem to have decided as a nation that belief trumps reality, and I guess it’s that intellectuals, who place unrestricted thought above the constraints of belief systems, keep delving into uncomfortable realities. I think we might be at one of the most pathetic moments in American intellectual history, in no small measure because of people who keep claiming to look back to the founders, without a clue what an intellectual awakening the key figures were indulging in.

Elliott,

Your response was interesting. So your intellectualism has surpassed anything the bible or Christ himself has to say correct? The bible does speak on these things. Psalm 139 is a good one as well as Exodus 21:22.

On the Exodus verse many of your friends try to highlight the questionable translation that in the case of miscarriage the penalty was not the same as death of the mother. The fact is that translation (KJV) is unreliable and in my opinion incorrect. My version says “no harm is done”. But regardless of the translation do not ignore the fact that a crime was committed and retribution is to be paid.

How about Luke 1:44? “As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.” Hmmm… so she really means the tissue spasmed?

Here’s one: Isaiah 49:1, 5 “The Lord hath called me from the womb, from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.”

Amos 1:13 speaks of the wrath of God concerning the fact that they “ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead”

Now, I’m quite certain an intellectual humanist such as yourself will argue that these are all subjective and not relevant, but don’t forget you don’t have to prove it since the bible means nothing to you anyway. So why not just admit that to you the bible holds no authority?

The fact is your assuration is false, the bible has much to say when you get beyond “Thou shalt not judge”.

Okay, this has moved far beyond silly and is beginning to venture into criminal negligence. (Just my opinion–I am not a licensed attorney.) From Slate, via firedoglake, on the response of actual hunters:

“The official story is that the blast from the vice president’s shotgun hit Whittington at a distance of 30 yards. Hunters at the Vaughn Building [the headquarters of Harry Whittington] are skeptical. The hunt took place on a cold, windy afternoon. Whittington and his fellow hunters were probably wearing warm clothing—say, a jacket and a flannel shirt. Cheney was using a 28-gauge shotgun, a smaller-diameter firearm with pellets smaller than BBs. Whittington’s friends question whether the pellets could have penetrated his layers of clothing and skin at that range. Yet two pellets lodged against his larynx, another was in his liver, and another migrated into the heart muscle, causing the heart attack. The pattern of wounds was between the lower chest and the forehead, a pretty tight zone for shot of 30 yards. If the range was considerably less than 30 yards, then it is likely that Whittington’s injuries were worse than the initial statement by Katharine Armstrong indicated. (The blast “knocked him “silly,” but “he was fine.”)

RRRRyan,

Yes, honest intellectualism trumps anything any sacred text is perceived to literally say. It’s one of the reasons this experiment called the American republic came into being. You, like way too many Americans, are trapped in a rigid Bible literalism that actually inhibits your ability to appreciate to their fullest realization the marvellous tenets to be found in what is recorded as the words of Jesus. Why do you suppose intellectuals like Leslie can have a very deep and profound faith?

America is about making room for people’s faith, not being Constitutionally beholden to any religious beliefs.

“from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.”

To quote a favorite movie character: “I don’t think those words mean what you think they mean.”

ice weasel, you can hardly claim to be a biblical scholar. You can’t have it both ways. The irony of you quoting Iñigo Montoya is that the word meant exactly what Vizzini thought it meant. It is even more ironic when you look at the fact that Vizzini was actually the “intellectual” who allowed his own gray matter to trump everyone else’s opinion. To his own detriment, if I must add.

Finally, “Inconceivable!” is what you will be saying on the day of Christ’s return. So how very ironic you chose that quote.

RRRRyan, it becomes more and more important for me to say this clearly and publicly:

I support entirely your choice and your freedom to “ch[oose] to allow the Bible to guide [your] thought process.”

As an American citizen living outside the Judeo-Christian tradition, I have made the choice to find my guidance elsewhere.

I will do my best not to interfere with your decisions, and I respectfully ask that you offer me the same respect.

(If I have learned anything from the last few years, it’s that silence, far from being golden, has become dangerous.)

RRRRyan, weren’t the Pharisees a group of conservative elitist status quo-ers? Do you honestly think the “Christian” right could tell Jesus, or another true prophet, from a heretic or (gasp!) a damn liberal?

My spiritual life truly began in Catholic High School when my religion teacher (a Brother of the Sacred Heart) told us to remember the Bible is just a book of stories- the meaning is what’s important.

I used to quote verse back at the people who used it as a weapon, but it’s a losing battle. The Bible ain’t about love if you’re chucking it at people’s heads, brother.

ry ry, for all you know, I *am* an eminent biblical scholar, right? Chances are, you know nothing about me. So your assumption is just that, all ass my friend, not much “umption”.

So rrryan, I wonder if you’ll answer this question, which published version of the bible is it that you read?

This is one biblically uninformed person who can’t wait for your response.

Thank you.

Now don’t you worry Ic.. er..Timmy, I won’t shoot no bald eagles unless’n they’s askin fer it.

I wish to Goddess that the press would pursue the stories of torture, spying on Americans, and all the rest of the shameful illegal activites of this administration that was going to bring “honor and integrity” back to the White House, as diligently as they have pursued this pathetic little story.

Harold - as long as you’re throwing things together, there must be some variant on Tom (turkey?) Dick and Harry that works for this…

Hey fouler, the last thing I’m worried is what you are shooting. Feel free to shoot at whatever you wish. Unlike Senor Whittington, when I am around armed republicans, chances are, I’m shooting first. After all, pre-emptive strikes are accepted doctrine, no?

Julia,
Thank you for your clear statement to RRRRyan, and welcome out of the darkness of lurking. I couldn’t agree with you more. Glad to have you.

There is likely much more to the story than has thus far emerged. There are reports that there was some beer involved, along with the woman who is our ambassador to Switzerland. Most intriguing (and off the wall, if Huffington Post is careless about vetting what it publishes) is the following: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11942.htm
I assume there are serious libel implications if this is a false report, although I’m still new to the internet and the blogosphere, so I would really like to know if there is any substance, as opposed to some kind of wild, unfounded speculation (like WMDs in Iraq in 2003).

By the way, they weren’t hunting, they were skeet shooting with live targets. What WF, RRRR, and Paul Begala do is hunting. Now it is true the live targets wouldn’t even exist if they hadn’t been bred to be live skeet targets, so the only issue is whether or not it is humane to raise domestic game birds to use as live skeet targets. There is something terribly faux and effete about it, especially if one is driven up to the skeeting range.

nato, & weasle - I mostly use the NIV since it is based on the oldest manuscripts and has the most up to date language. The TNIV has been even better so far that I’ve seen. I also like to compare the KJV just because so many people use it. One of the first things you learn in bible college is the foundations of the translations and how to dig deeper on a particular verse. I seldom go to a Greek dictionary but have. A lot of this is a matter of trust. There is a spiritual aspect to this as well, prayer, fasting, fellowship with God and with wise people.

I’m not trying to “bash” anyone over the head. Elliot said the bible doesn’t mention abortion and I simply pointed out where it does. Then the “intellectualism” vs. “sacred texts” came up and I merely tried to explain that using bible belief as grounds for ignorance is not truth. In fact it is a fallacy. These threads are so interesting since I spend more time being attacked personally and very little reviewing objective rebuttals.

David, thank you for being willing to explain your position and not simply putting your crosshairs on me. Others have too and that’s what keeps me interested. We don’t know much about each other and I’d bet we’d all be surprised if we knew more. The mystery makes it a bit more fun though.

RRRRyan,

I don’t want to sound like I don’t respect your faith, because I think we’d all agree that is *precisely* why any sentence including “according to the Bible” rubs so many of us the wrong way. I’ve never formally studied theology, though it’s a degree I plan to get when I retire. Based on my informal studies and your apparent formal schooling, there’s a point that has long confused me that I’d love to get your response to. That is, if we make the leap and agree that the Bible was divinely inspired but written down by man, and man is fallible and will write with personal and cultural biases, how does one decide what in the Bible is to be treated as parable, what is to be taken literally, and what is to be recognized as having been relevant then but not now? I’ve read scholars who have stated that Old Testament prohibitions on certain things were likely a reaction to health concerns of the day, given poor levels of hygiene and sanitation. And if we accept that books of the Bible were written within a cultural context, how do we decide what to continue with and what to relegate to the past? For that matter, who makes that call?

nato, I posted my stick cartoon:
http://anothermonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/dont-be-dick.html

And in case anyone hasn’t made this observation already…
Dick Cheney managed to shoot a lawyer in the heart with birdshot at a distance of 30 yards. Considering the size of the average lawyer’s heart, that’s a pretty good shot.

David, you did catch that I find the KJ untrustworthy right?

President Bush, why do you waste your time blathering with Liberals about “pearls and swine” and the King James vs. the Artemus Wholeflaffer Version of the Bible. Who gives a rat’s ass?

Obviously your ADHD is now dominant and you’ll do anything to keep from facing the God-offal mess you’ve made of your life and presidency. Let me help you start dig your way out. Face your problems head-on and deal with them. Was your Vice President drunk when he shot the lawyer? Is that why reporting the incident was delayed for 22 hours, so America’s favorite raw meat Republican could sleep it off & sober up? If that’s the case, get rid of him! If Cheney did indeed force Scooter Libby to out Valerie Plame, will you really “fire” him like you promised you would. How about the Katrina disaster? Will you actually fire someone over that debacle and not replace him or her with yet another useless, brainless political hack? The Katrina disaster is still going on. You’re kicking people out of their hotel rooms and into the street to become homeless; how many today? Soldiers being deployed to Iraq are still having to buy their own body armor before they go into the war zone. What’s that about? How many veterans of the Iraqi War wound up having to buy their own meals today, as they lay in their beds recovering from their injuries. That has to be a new American low in irresponsibility.

Get a backbone; get a clue; get to work. Time’s a wasting. Do something good and honorable and morally uplifting today for a change. And quit hiding behind that stupidly transparent RRRRyan screen name. Everyone knows it’s you. Jeez!!

Adam, stop banging your head on the wall. You’ll wake up tomorrow and it will all have been a bad dream.
Lurker, tu vomito la mi zapatos.

cooper, the Shrub hasn’t done an honest day’s work in his life—he’s gonna start NOW?

Is it just me, or is the script playing out just too perfectly? Cheney is forced to step down so that the GOP’s 2008 draft pick can have 3 full years of VP-level experience. (And just who is that 2008 draft pick? Anybody notice just how nice-nice McCain has been playing lately, even to the point of badmouthing golden boy Obama? What’s up with that?)

Pearl? Not Lone Star?

(I left Texas before I was old enough to drink, so I don’t have any way to distinguish local beers.)

Ann, I’m neither stupid nor ugly. LOL. You are right, I did mention it and purposely so. I suppose the “threw down the glove” thing is true too if you mean that I did answer the questions posed. You must admit the controversy was significantly caused by strong feelings on both sides of the subject. Elliott made the comment that “your idea of religion has no role in this conversation”, which is again ironic considering the strong opposing feelings that rose. Anyone interested in more than just a lackey fest would admit that if the topic comes up then my idea does have a role. In fact that speaks to the overall concept this forum makes me keenly aware of. The fact that as much as so many try to claim an interest in open debate they will always fall back on insult and alienation if there is no good rebuttal. Elliott’s questions were most likely rhetorical, what else is new, but the fact is I have considered every one.

1. Have you ever been a victim of rape? Answer: 7% of abortions fall in this category. Inconsequential, and provisions have always existed for this case if you must blame the baby for the crime. I think I mentioned before that my only experience with this was a woman who chose to keep the child. She says to this day that child has been a crucial part of her healing. He’s a neat kid too. Her husband and her are examples to me of true wisdom in the midst of tragic circumstances.

2. Have you ever had to go to an abusive father to tell him that you are pregnant? Answer: Assuming this makes up the other 93% of abortions the fact is there are again provisions for such circumstances. I do not believe the correct answer is let the father continue to be abusive and allow a child to make the decision in secret so she can go back home and not be yelled at that day. If I must say I do know something of abuse. I also know something of the deceitfulness of children. This could count as a persuasive point if there were not so many provisions available.

3. Have you ever been threatened by your husband? Answer: What does this have to do with killing your unborn child? See #2 above.

4. Have you ever been told by God the exact moment that a fetus becomes a child? Answer: God doesn’t ever mention the word fetus, so I’m left with there is no such thing. It’s a child. Don’t forget, it was even bad to “spill your seed on the ground”.

5. Has the bible ever told when that time is? Answer: I believe this to be the same question as #4 above.

The rest consists of unsubstantiated statements concerning faith and finally me. Now that I think about it, Elliot was the one throwing down the gloves. Ann, you seem pretty reasonable, you must see that. Basically, it seems Elliott’s reasoning for abortion seems to center around abusive situations that he would like to allow to continue without complication. You must admit at least it is not ignorance that causes me to say it does not persuade me.

RRRRyan,

Your rebuttal brings me back around to my earlier train of thought. Of course fetus doesn’t appear in the Bible, because it was an unheard of concept at the time the scriptures were written. As for spilling seed, at the time of the writing, sex for procreation was vital for the survival of the tribe. The issue isn’t what is written; rather, if interpretation of the Bible is largely subjective and based upon your faith and your relationship with God, how can the Bible (or any other book) be used to define civil laws? Orthodox Jews and reform Jews view the same texts through different perspectives. Who decides who’s right?

Jon,

Stop it, your scaring me. You know, I never really bought into conspiracy theories until this administration.

Off topic,

I’ll be damned. Our gang in Haiti couldn’t prevent Preval, who won, from becoming the next President of Haiti. Haitians are gutsier than we are. They just plain refused to allow fraud to determine the outcome. Sometimes Fuck you, X won makes sense.

It occurs to me that the old writers’ admonition, “Show, don’t tell,” applies equally well to religion.

Frankly, I couldn’t care less whether someone interprets the Bible in such-and-such a fashion. I’d much rather know how a person lives their religion than talks it. Unless their religion consists entirely of talking, which in itself is revealing.

Here’s a fun game that you can play! Things have reached the point where public displays of piety have become so common, even here in godless northern California, that if you sit down in a coffee shop or restaurant, there’s a pretty good chance you’ll be near a group that’s talking–always loudly–about religion. When you hear this, play a round of Ecumenical Countdown: see how long it takes for one of the loud talkers to mention the preeminent New Testament topic of helping the poor. While I’ve been playing the game only a few months, the result so far is, well, never.

Could we get back to talking politics now? Pretty please?

RRRRyan,

I’m not caving.

Cooper,

You do make a good case, dammit.

Maximum Bob,

Here’s a non-religious offering (I like your game) which looks like something Adam would write. I got it from a cousin (I’m Southern, I’ve got cousins from hell to breakfast):

Subject: And Now The Rest of the Story

Believed Shooting Victim Was Zawahiri, Veep Says

Vice President Dick Cheney revealed today that he shot a fellow hunter
while on a quail hunting trip over the weekend because he believed the
man was the fugitive terror mastermind Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Mr. Cheney acknowledged that the man he sprayed with pellets on
Saturday was not al-Zawahiri but rather Harry Whittington, a
78-year-old millionaire lawyer from Austin, blaming the mix-up on
“faulty intelligence.”

“I believed I had credible intelligence that al-Zawahiri had
infiltrated my hunting party in disguise with the intent of spraying me
with pellets,” Mr. Cheney told reporters. “Only after I shot Harry in
the face and he shouted ‘Cheney, you bastard’ did I realize that this
intelligence was faulty.”

Moments after Mr. Cheney’s assault on Mr. Whittington, Mr. al-Zawahiri
appeared in a new videotape broadcast on al-Jazeera to announce that he
was uninjured in the vice president’s attack because, in his words, “I
was in Pakistan.”

An aide to the vice president said he believed that the American people
would believe Mr. Cheney’s version of events, but added, “If he was
going to shoot any of his cronies right now it’s a shame it wasn’t Jack
Abramoff.”

At the White House, President George W. Bush defended his vice
president’s shooting of a fellow hunter, saying that the attack sent “a
strong message to terrorists everywhere.”

“The message is, if Dick Cheney is willing to shoot an innocent
American citizen at point-blank range, imagine what he’ll do to you,”
Mr. Bush said.

Maximum, you shouldn’t hear about a Christian’s good works because we are told they are private between us and God. I can say without a doubt your post brought me no shame.

So on politics, is anyone ashamed of Gore now?

RRRRyan -

Reread my post. Then reply to it, and not to something you imagined reading that’s easier to counter.

David -

Great story; it’s nice to have relatives who forward stuff that good. I believe that originated with Andy Borowitz (www.borowitzreport.com). I also commend to you another recent Borowitz article, Michael Brown Named Secretary of Defensiveness.

Harold, thanks for the dick. Er, cartoon.

Rrryan, with regard to scripture and God keeping the text accurate: If God were keeping the text accurate, we would not have so many different versions of the bible. Granted, we might consider a different one for each language, but there would be no need for the KJB, NIV, or the “new and improved” KJB with JS translations (otherwise known as the Mormon KJB). That leaves us with interpretation by us fallible humans and the fact that there is a lot of stuff not covered by the new or old testament. Fasting and prayer may help some of us come up with answers deal with things not covered by those works, but to expect those answers to work for everyone is incredible conceit. What you come up with as an answer is no more valid than what I come up with as an answer. What I come up with, though, will not be prefaced with any statements about it being God’s Will. Until we can learn to get along with each other honestly and fairly, I think we’re all pretty much screwed from both a religious and societal standpoint.

I actually wrote another, slightly longer version of what I’m thinking, but I think it would even piss off Adam…
I’m tired. In a nutshell :

- Discussing which english translation of the bible is better is like arguing which shade of red is better. If you are incapable of reading the original Aramaic/Greek, don’t even think about arguing which punctuation in which english version is Closer to the Truth.
- Bringing up the subject of abortion in every post is beyond rude. New subject, please. If you really want to discuss your personal views on abortion ad infinitum, write your own blog. There are probably hundreds of people who will flock there and agree with you. Trying to get a rise out of these wonderful intellectuals here is stretching the friendship.
- The Lobster allowed us all to evolve with two ears and one mouth. So in theory, we’re supposed to listen twice as much as we speak. (I’m assuming the same ratio applies to reading and typing). Despite what we may have been taught in english lit., listening/reading does not consist of looking for words or ideas that we can then blast into smithereens with our intellectual prowess (at least, it doesn’t for me, but then my reading is always better than my writing). It usually consists of hearing an alternative viewpoint, then trying to understand where that fits in with our own viewpoint. It even (gasp! shock! horror!) may mean changing our viewpoint based on a deeper understanding of the truth (that’s truth with a small “t”). If you are unable or unwilling to learn, write your own blog. I did.
- Of course, this is Mr. Off Topic talkin’

RRRRRRRRRRyan, it took a little searching to find out what Al Gore said from a more or less neutral source. (All the top listings on Google News were distinctly right of center.) I’m having a hard time understanding why I should be ashamed of anything that he said, so I guess I won’t be. I will, however, continue to be ashamed of those actions of our government which fall far short of the American ideal.

Stephen, I’m supposedly Mormon, but my lack of belief in the Joseph Smith story and my general ambivalence towards the idea that there is a God makes me really doubt my Mormonism. But, I don’t smoke, and I rarely drink, so I guess I’m halfway still Mormon, right? I think most people would describe me as “one of those damned secular humanists.” I tend to believe we should spend more time trying to improve the physical well-being of those around us rather than focusing almost exclusively on the moral well-being of those around us. Damn, another step further away from my Mormonhood with that last statement . . .

RRRRyan -

I believe we’re making progress. The direct quote from my original post was good, but things kind of went downhill from there. I guess you’ve decided to bail on this discussion; nevertheless, the following short quiz may help you get a handle on what I said.

—–

1) According to a recent post by Maximum Bob, which sentence best describes the meaning of the admonition “Show, Don’t Tell” when applied to religion?

A) The truly religious should spend less time talking about the Bible and more time doing good.

B) The tuly religious should spend more time talking about the good they’ve done.

C) Don’t ask, don’t tell.

D) Less talk, more music.

—–

2) Maximum Bob has observed that people who talk about religion in coffee shops and restaurants:

A) spend insufficient time bragging about the good they’ve done.

B) spend insufficient time talking about poverty, a central theme of the New Testament.

C) seem unaware that they are shouting.

D) order those fancy coffee drinks that take 5 minutes and a battalion of counter people to make and hold up the line for everyone else, in direct contradiction to Juan Valdez’s Epistle to the Caffineans.
—–

Arrrgh! And this, which I think is a great quote on beliefs (even if he wasn’t really discussing religiou) is hopefully my final post on this topic:

“I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. A can’t answer your question.”
– George W. Bush (October 4, 2000)

Let’s see if I got this straight. Chaney knocks back a few at lunch, drives to the trap shoot where they use non-clay pigeons. The sacrificial birds are released, Dick hears one, wheels around and fires level before he looks, and hits his friend Harry. Fortunately he has his medical staff on hand and they treat Harry and haul him off. Dick then gets Katherine to call the Shopping News to break the story. The next day (when he is presumably sober) he is deposed by police (He and W are the first president and VP to have their own arrest records), and the White House finally lets the story out a day late.

Show of hands here folks, how many think that this is a morally fit man, a man of character befitting his position?

How’d this jerkoff get to be running our country?

Check out the new documentary coming out on Gore, or go hear him live if he comes through your town. He’s a different man. An actual leader. Doesn’t excuse all of his past failings, but he’s earned himself the right to be viewed through fresh eyes.

Everyone, but especially RRRRyan,

This is one powerful read on the rise of false Christianity and the Republican Party:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0216-20.htm

Good link David,

You know, that’s why I don’t get mad when people tell me I’m not a Christian because I’m Mormon. Lately, I just say “whew, thanks” I’m pretty sure I don’t want to be lumped in with those guys!

Unfortunatly it’s the wackos that get the press. I am sure, cause I know several, that there are lots of your average Christians just as offended as the rest of us by what is being done in their name.

Stephen, I know plenty of good Christian people, too. Why, some of my best friends are Christians. But at its core, it’s still a patriarchal philosophy that fears women, the Earth, and Nature, and wants to control them all by any means necessary. I don’t believe Christianity started that way, and I don’t believe that anything could be farther from Jesus’s message, or even Paul’s, in spite of his mysogynistic little heart. But that’s what it has become, and I don’t want anything more to do with it.

Ann, the way I see it is that rational people, Christian, Muslim, IVP-worshipping or otherwise, just don’t tend to scream as loudly as their extremist counterparts. Unfortunately, we seem to accept screaming and fearmongering as leadership these days (which I think says something about the intelligence of the average person, and it’s not that great a thing to say), so I don’t think we’re going to see the rational members of any group taking control any time soon. Of course, my glass is 3/4′ths empty right now, so my opinion may be overly-influenced by the negative. Maybe we just need more angry centrists to take up the “Death to all extremists!” chant. Or is that self-limiting?

Sigh. Done it again, scared ‘im away… Not what I intended, but that’s what I shoulda learned by now.
Back to regular programming.

“we’re all tree-hugging, hetero-bashing pinko commie liberals”

Where do I send my membership fee (I assume this is an international organization)?

Sharon,

The problem isn’t the religion, it’s that no one lives it. I have heard it said several times in several threads that christianity today isn’t what it looks like it should be in the Bible and I couldn’t agree more. A quick perusal of the New Testament, heck even just the four gospels, shows that christians are not reacting the way their founder intended. I’m pretty sure Christ would have handled the whole 9/11 thing differently.

nato, I would say you are at least halfway a Mormon. Nothing wrong with questions. I’m still a believer myself so…I think the chruch does a lot for the physical well being of its members and those around the world who are not members. If we try to help their spiritual well being as well then, so much the better.

Stephen, Covert Crutch-Kickin’ Cooper is the man with the plan for you.

But if he’s busy, how’s about this: We head to a moron rally, something whipped up by Limbaugh will do (the audience is already in “Oprah” mode), you rush Rush, I’ll grab the mic. Now the dream where I thought all this up goes horribly wrong, with me saying “you’re all idiots”, while the crowd responds “Yes, we are all idiots”).
[With appropriate apologies to M. Python]

RRRyan,

Money isn’t the root of all evil (I didn’t say it was) and I don’t think Christ was a sissy. I said the Love of money was bad, not money itself. The rich young man went away sorrowing because he was told to sell all he had and take up his cross and follow Christ and he had much. (Although I would point out, we don’t know what happened to him, he might have sold it) Where does that fit in with make a million this year? Consider the lilies.

Anyone who reads the Bible knows that Christ could be a hard nose if requried. i.e. Pharasisses, Sadducess, Scribes. Notice they were supposed belivers. I don’t remember him getting tough with any unbelivers. I don’t see a lot of Love your enemies in the current admisistration. I know we are to “Judge as we would be Judged” and I don’t want to be judged like to people in Gitmo. Remember, Christ was “Meek and Lowly of heart” Meek, not Weak. When was the last time you saw meekness in any of our politicians? Seems like maybe you have forgotten we don’t need to use violence as the only answer. There was a better way than what we did in Iraq.
Whether Christ and His Father are the same person is an argument for another blog.

Fabulous response, I was mistaken to assume you did not know and I can see that you weren’t outrightly making those statements.

I guess between the lines I saw a “Gandhi is better than Bush” theme and using Christ to justify it. I do see meekness in our president. Much more so than Gore or Kerry. I did think Clinton came across as humble too, my difficulties with him were other issues. One example, which I’m sure anyone here can tear to pieces, was when he gave his speech at Kansas State and a lady started raving about how much the Iraqi people love the U.S. and are so thankful for what we have done. All Bush did was try to quiet her down, he didn’t bask in the so rarely revealed truth. That showed some serious humility from my perspective.

I do not believe “Gandhi is better than Bush”, in fact I’m quite certain that al-Zarqawi would have hacked off Gandhi’s head with a knife if he had a chance. So in this case I believe “Bush is better than Gandhi”.

I know you didn’t mention Gandhi, but he represents the non-violent and humble response to persecution. The concept seems to be that someone cannot claim to be a Christian and support war. I understand the connection, but I also do not believe it is true. The offspring of Ishmael are doing exactly what the angel told Hagar they would. “Living in conflict with their brothers”.

BTW, on a side note did you know that the Koran basically takes the story of Isaac and Ishmael and swaps the roles? Somehow they decided more than a thousand years later that the writings of Moses were wrong and that Ishmael was actually Isaac and vice versa. This is somewhat new to me, maybe you already knew it. It is curious to me that someone could pull that kind of deception on such a scale. Not to mention claim that “Jesus is a prophet of Islam”. It would require a total brainwash for me to buy that one. I suppose when dozens of generations are raised in a culture of deception it not only becomes easy to be deceptive, but also to allow yourself to be deceived. Oh well, I suppose most of the experts on religion here think I’m deceived.

I’ve been listening to the Carter interview on KQED, too. Jimmy’s one of those you-actually-have-to-do-good-works Christians, a real credit to the faith.

MaxBob/Siobhan,

I think all christians should be you-have-to-do-good-works people. James 2 in the Bible says it best. Faith without works is dead.

Thanks for the link, I’ve always liked Carter, seemed like his problem was telling people you can’t raise spending and cut taxes. Americans don’t seem to interested in the truth.
David, I like, and agree with, your list. I have heard the same thing about the eye of the needle. The person who told me said that a camel would have to be on their knees to get through.

Jimmy is a common favorite among liberals today, him and Barbara Streisand. I guess he’s an American Gandhi.

I heard rumor that his son is going for office. Anyone know anything about that?

What’s all of this “I know who Jesus likes” stuff coming from admitted non-believers? Why is it so fun for self proclaimed agnostics and atheists to jump on the “I know Jesus better than you” boat? … Never mind, I think I just realized it really boils down to the joy of antagonizing Christians. It is quite ironic that so many claim expert insight on topics that they reject. If you knew Jesus so well you’d know that without accepting Him you will go to hell. What a passive, gentle, diplomatic, and merciful solution for a disagreement.

Let me guess, hell is too mean for Jesus to subject anyone to, so it must not exist. The biblical references are all results of human error as is every other reference I don’t like.

RRRyan,

So do we only have two options now? We are either lily livered pacifists or we go to war? My point is that there are, and were, more than these two options. I don’t see how going to war makes us more Christ-like.

While Christ is the Judge and I am sure that not everyone will be happy with their final destination, that doesn’t mean he is the tough, no-nonsense GUY he is made out to be by some people. You realize that automatic condemnation will put 2/3’s of the world’s population in Hell? I reject that idea 100%. That does not fit in with my understanding of Christ. Why condemn the poor man in mainland China or in the middle of Africa who never heard of him? Justice and Mercy in balance. I think He will look at what we did with what we know, and judge accordingly.

I made the comment since I am neither an agnostic nor an atheist and therefore, according to your post, eligible to do so. I don’t mean to sound antagonistic or hateful, just one man’s opinion.

Well, for the sake of disclosure I think their is something to Stephen’s argument and believe that judgment day will be a surprise to us all.

-

Second, Ann, my point was Hell is not an example of a pacifist response to deceived people. It is not a “live and let live” philosophy.

Anyone who claims that peace is the sole message of Christ does not know the message of Christ. The 3rd paragraph of post #131 and the following agreement is what I am responding to. That list is preposterous and shows a clear non-acquaintance with the Jesus of the Bible. In fact unrepentant self-proclaimed experts were exactly who Jesus had no tolerance for. Unfortunately, I suppose most people that post to this forum fall into the self-proclaimed expert category and the unrepentant part is probably the majority of today’s society. :-\

David, being the author of post #131 has readily described his tinkering with religion and current opposition to the church in general. So all I’m saying is he can claim to be an expert in pornography, the use of foul language, and the caveats of the homosexual lifestyle but don’t deny Christ and then proclaim his character at the same time. It is illogical.

I did not say “You’re all going to Hell” and I’m sure you will concede my purpose for the topic was not what you’re accusing me of.

Did anyone hear the plan to add Bush’s mug to Mt. Rushmore? Shweet!

RRRRyan,

I never denied Christ. I denied the various disturbing interpretations of Christ. And I have yet to find any necessary or defining link between Christ and the various churches. I do find it in individuals who exhibit Christ’s precepts in their lives, and that’s the only place I am able to find it. I admire churches which do good things, dislike churches that do bad things, and believe we’re all in this together, and that we’re here to help each other through this thing called life, whatever it is.

As the leader of the Arawaks, I think it was, asked as Christopher Columbus and company were burning him and other Arawaks while still alive, in response to a priest offering him the opportunity to accept Christ as his saviour so that he could avoid the torments of hell (the irony of this is just overwhelming), Are there going to be Christians in Heaven (it was a new concept to him)? When told Yes, he said, “Then I’d rather go to hell.”

Have to let it go at this. Gonna try to rein myself in at least a bit. I think I’m an over-poster.

Here’s the real question. Why did the cops let Cheney have a day before they deposed him? If he is so innocent why is he acting so guilty?

This is what would happen in Balmer. http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0221-31.htm