The Quail Hunt

Tomorrow’s going to be like Christmas morning at the Daily Show writers’ meeting.

Geez, and Whittington is a supporter. Imagine what might have happened if Sen.Patrick Leahy had been along on that trip.

This story was obviously leaked by some totally irresponsible person who failed to appreciate that it should have been kept secret to protect the nation’s security.

Terror has just won another round … unless responsible persons are able to put the proper spin on things.

Excellent comment, dee.
Thank you!

Can you imagine if it had been a Dem who’d done that? “He’s obviously just out for a photo op. No real hunter would have made that mistake.”

… The gang who couldn’t shoot straight, at your service.

What interests me is the clear attempt to blame the victim. The article quotes Cheney’s hostess, Katharine Armstrong, on whose ranch the hunt took place:

She said Cheney, an experienced hunter, did not realize Whittington had rejoined the group without announcing himself, which is proper protocol among hunters.

“They had no idea he was there,” Armstrong said.

So it’s Mr. Whittington’s own fault he got peppered. Fortunately for him, Mr. Cheney’s disastrous health condition, coupled with his office, means he’s followed everywhere (even, apparently, while shooting quail) by what amounts to a mobile ER; so Mr. Whittington got the best emergency medical treatment the U.S. taxpayer can afford, as cooper pointed out in Friday’s thread.

I’m sorry, as far as I’m concerned, the guy with the gun is responsible for making sure what he hits is not one of his fellow hunters, hunting protocol or no hunting protocol. The NRA makes a big deal of their firearms safety classes; I’m sure Cheney is a member; was this something else that wasn’t on his priority to-do list (like military service in the 60’s)?

Can anyone anywhere cite a case where Dick Cheney actually admitted any kind of an error?? I’m just curious.

I think that hedera pointed out what (for me) is the most interesting information about this story, namely, that Dick Cheney has doctors and EMTs with him at all times and an ambulance on call 24 hours a day. While George Jr. is probably the healthiest President ever, Dick may be the unhealthiest Vice President ever.

Luckily for Mr. Cheney, he did not shoot Antonin Scalia when Dick took Antonin duck hunting while the Supreme Court was deciding a case involving Halliburton - a case from which Scalia declined to recuse himself.

Can you just imagine the broughaha if it had been the other way around and Cheney had been hit?

It’s something a person would never live down.

Or maybe even survive.

But because he’s the VP, there will beno problem for him.

I can’t wait to hear why quail hunting is more dangerous than any other form of hunting that involves guns. “He didn’t announce himself”? Is this guy Whittington invisible or something? If so, maybe he should have been wearing one of those orange vests.

Sharon- want to make a bet that he *was* wearing an orange vest? Wouldn’t “announcing” yourself scare away the quail?

This is one more reason my husband is rooting for a pandemic. The way he sees it, the world has way too many people and most seem to be from the shallow end of the gene pool.

From the AP Report:

“Each of the hunters was wearing a bright orange vest, Armstrong said.”

David’s uninformed guess sounds reasonable enough to me, but I’ll propose two other theories:

1. Whittingon got sick of Cheney telling him to go fuck himself every time he announced his return to the group, so the last time he thought he’d sneak back in, but he startled the Veep

2. Cheney got sick of telling Whittington to go fuck himself every time he announced his return to the group, so he decided to let the lead do the talking, if you will.

The important thing to remember is the Cheney made the decision to shoot in the direction of Whittington using the best intelligence that was available at the time. Any discussions now as to whether that was the right decision only distract us from the mission and enbolden the enemy.

We can’t discuss whether the targetted quail were known to have been injected with the avian flu virus by an Al Qaeda splinter group, but as the commander of our Commander in Chief of the Armed Foreces of the United States of America, any criticism of the actions of the Vice President, are a direct insult to our troops who are puting their lives on the line to protect the (few remaining) freedoms we hold so dear.

One of the things that makes this incident so amusing is how almost routine it is. As if it is another typical screw-up only in this case instead of a pen or a phone he had a shotgun in his hand. It’s just more collateral damage to be brushed over.

Does anyone know what happens to mere mortals in situations like this? Even if it’s an accident isn’t a person charged with a crime when they shoot someone? I don’t mean to suggest that the Vice President should be charged with a crime. I’m just talking in general about what might happen if a real person did such a thing.

SpottedDog, there would be no charges. Even for a “real person”. Everyone present saw an accident and competent law enforcement would have been satisfied by that. If it were fatal they would perhaps pursue an investigation but it would still end the same way. No charges, just an accident.

—-

Okay, I will comment on this one. It is a non-story. Frankly I don’t think the vice president has any responsibility at all to announce an accident that occurred while he was vacationing. I thought you guys respected people’s privacy. No charges have been filed and no crime has been committed. The press is just pissed that some small town newspaper got to scoop them.

Hunting the way they were can be hectic and people do get “peppered”. I’ve been “peppered” many times. Peppered simply means the pellets hit you. I just happened to have them “rain” down on me more than actually be fired directly at me.

Bird shot is only lethal to humans at very close range. So depending on how you define “dangerous” then David could be considered correct. Bird hunting accidents would rarely be fatal, where large game rounds are very lethal even at long ranges. Accidentally shooting someone deer hunting is actually much more difficult as well. A single projectile has a very small “hit” area compared to shot that flies in a wide pattern.

I mentioned before that I had a dog that “caught a BB” in his rear end. The rabbit just about ran into him. When the hunter fired the dog was about 2 feet in front of the rabbit. The shot pattern was wide enough at that range for him to get “stung”. It was doubtlessly an accident, the dog was in some briars and the rabbit was headed right for him, the hunter was pretty sorry too. If I had been standing in that briar patch I would have likely finished hunting that day with the BB in my leg, and no, I wouldn’t have worried about “lead poisoning”. LOL.

Now, getting shot in the face would be pretty tough rabbit hunting. Bird hunting, if the bird flies straight at someone and the vice president underestimates the over shot then … Well that’s probably what happened.

Accidental discharge would have been a more palatable excuse but I guess they decided not to “tweak” the story.

I was driving down the road the other day and just looked to my side at something and crossed the center line as I went over a hill. I just thank God that no one was coming. Accidents happen, and they can even be fatal. We’ve all done things that if the circumstances were just right someone could have been killed. This is one of those things.

Keith and Vinft,

I’m leaning toward your explanations…

RRRRyan,

I agree regarding being “peppered,” especially having bird shot rain down on you harmlessly, but I remember that occurring only when a bunch of us hunters were scattered about a dove field, and even then we were’t happy, because it meant someone was inattentive to where other people were.

But Cheney shot this guy in the face and chest, apparently at pretty close range. The hospital did not describe his wounds as minor. The information that has been released, plus the picture I referred to, make interpreting this as a normal hunting accident hard to see.

A hunting accident is not a private matter, and most certainly the Vice President shooting a fellow hunter is not. Does Texas law allow a hunting accident to go unreported? I might choose not to report putting some pellets in someone, if the other party agreed, but I’m pretty sure Florida law would frown on not reporting that someone got shot, whatever the circumstances. I’m willing to bet a hospital is required to report all gunshot wounds.

Better Folks have Senior Moments in a Bar !

Hmmm, so if someone gets a yard dart stuck in their foot are we legally required to report that? The man had to be hospitalized and if that equates to a requirement of notifying the press then I may be mistaken. I never questioned notifying the authorities, it’s the idiot press that I think should be left hanging.

RRRRyan, I just got your second-to-last line. It sounded like you were questioning the need to report the incident to the authorities. The press is going to be all over this story because it will sell papers/air time/etc. Incidentally, it was only on the second page of my local paper. You’ve got to admit it’s news, though, when the VP shoots someone.

Someone on another blog posted the protocols for quail hunting in layman’s terms. The whole notion that Whittington didn’t “announce his presence” is bogus. Just as the driver who rear-ends another car is always at fault, so the hunter who shoots another hunter is always at fault. But of course blaming the victim, which is what the new official mouthpiece of the White House, Ms. Armstrong, asserts, is a favorite game of the Bushies. The use of the words “peppered” and “sprayed”, to make it all sound so harmless, is also bogus. The man was shot. You don’t get put in ICU because you got “peppered”. That makes it sound less harmless than paintball.

But, yeah, it sure does distract from Scooter Libby and Tom Delay and Jack Abramoff and the soaring deficit and the Forever War and and and

Sharon “I grew up in Texas but I got out as soon as I could”

In retorspect, maybe it’s a good thing that Dick “Five Deferments, I had other priorities” Cheney never had to serve. Can you say “friendly fire”? I knew you could.

Random thoughts…

It is very plausible to get “peppered” while bird hunting. However, I would not repeat a trip afield w/ anyone who did that.
That really hurt! You Dick!

The responsible person is the one that pulls the trigger.

The hunting accident rate in Texas probably just went up 20%. We are very careful while hunting, it’s the driving that’ll kill ya’.
White House press corpse…What a bunch of cry baby, “I can’t be scooped by a podunk newspaper”, “it involves a GUN”…I first thought SNL had come back and was funny again.
This is embarrassing, or should have been, but the press has topped it already and, Sorry Ice, but Al Gore just called from Saudi and wants me to take him quail hunting.

Waterfowler, glad to see that you weren’t the victim of the Veep’s dramatic recreation of the Claudine Longet / Spider Sabich incident. (I only know about that from the from the first- or second-season SNL “Claudine Longet Invitational” sketch.)

I can’t wait to see the “Don’t Be A Dick” gun-safety campaign.

This whole thing stinks of a Rovian distraction, much like the Mohammed cartoons. Are we sure Karl wasn’t there, and he didn’t push Whittington into Cheney’s line of fire?

Damn, Harold, I’ve been thinking all day about that Claudine Longet Invitational sketch.

By the way, everyone’s overlooked the obvious motive in this Whittington “accident.” Two words: tissue match.

I’m just waiting for the Onion headline: “Vice President Cheney Shoots and Eats Hunting Buddy”

“Better than chicken” sez Veep.

if yaw want to talk about real news, please take a snapshot right now of the political consensus concerning Iran. It is quite similar to the consensus prior to invading Iraq. Right now just about everyone agrees that “something” needs to be done. So now remember the golden rule:

Go in with a “plan to win the peace”. I hear you can now order these online with certificates of authenticity and all.

Second, are there any dems here that would agree it’s time for Al Gore to start his own party? He could be called the IRPOTILTE party. Care to guess on the acronym?

Thanks for the response RRRRyan. I have been under the impression that when someone is shot charges are brought against the shooter regardless. Maybe I should watch more COPS.

“I suppose if I had been looking up and one hit me in my eye I may have been kinda pissed.”
RRRRyan, but if God, from the moment he created the universe - 6000 years ago, willed in to happen, why would you be pissed. It would all be part of God’s perfect plan. When and why did you lose your Faith? What if God wants you to be blind for the greater purpose of advancing His work? Who are you to question?

Dave D., no stamp needed for quail, only migratory waterfowl and until recently whitewing dove.
Back when Kerry killed his goose, he was almost certainly illegal. You actually have to fill out some paperwork to give wild game you’ve killed to someone else (b.s…federal laws), and you are not allowed to let someone else carry your game from the field.
F.F., what has God done to piss you off so?

F.F. … you are right, if God wants me blind so be it.

SpottedDog & Murray, I’m certainly no expert. A lot of people really think an accident involving a gun is much worse than similar incidents concerning other dangerous tools. It’s probably a matter of perspective. My very limited experience has been that firearms, especially in the case of hunting, are just tools. I actually got pulled over by a state trooper for speeding with 3 guys and 3 rifles in the truck. His only concern was that we didn’t have them loaded, which is illegal while driving. We did not, but he didn’t even check. That’s why I mentioned lawn darts. It seemed a reasonable comparison. A chainsaw, steak knife, even a hammer can cause a lot of damage too.

Waterfowler, the news did mention some upland game stamp that Texas recently introduced. Cheney’s license was valid but he was missing the game stamp. Our state just added a conservation stamp that is only good for half the year. It really boils down to a revenue boost. :-\

Murray, as usual I can feel the hostility. Cheney’s mistake was just that, an accident. The press corps on the other hand, they were quite deliberately jerks and I would question the validity of reporting coming from people like that. I didn’t say it was their fault Cheney shot someone, I just assert that their idiotism is a more interesting of a story. Are those the people we trust for information?

RRRRyan,

“if yaw want to talk about real news, please take a snapshot right now of the political consensus concerning Iran. It is quite similar to the consensus prior to invading Iraq. Right now just about everyone agrees that “something” needs to be done. So now remember the golden rule:

Go in with a “plan to win the peace”. I hear you can now order these online with certificates of authenticity and all.”

As you’ve likely seen, this is the story I keep weaving into my comments. I really think Cruising in Persia, Pentagon style, will be a disaster, which is why I very much want to have to eat crow. Cheney shooting Whittington should have been an in-and-out one-day story, which it would have been if the White House’s default position weren’t to keep everything secret, which was, of course, impossible in this instance. Especially helpful (to the administration as well) would have been an immediate, transparent, accurate and complete news conference about what happened. This was the VP, someone in his group did accidentally get shot, and the inevitable question is How could this happen? VP, loaded guns, someone shot. This is significant, and should have been dealt with straight up, so we could move on to news with much broader implications, but then we’d be into non-titillating issues that require real footwork and challenging analysis, about which the popular wisdom is that people change the channel in search of titilllation, so maybe we are just news screwed.

George Allen did throw Dick Cheney under the bus Sunday regarding the outing of Valerie [Plame] Wilson. Most intriguing. I think it means Cheney is about to get a full express load of buckshot in the ass, politically speaking.

I think Al Gore is on another of his Tell the Truth and Hope People Listen tours with his case regarding global warming. Time to quit being so engrossed in our personal reactions to the messenger and much more engrossed in the merits of the message. Movie is coming out in May courtesy of one of the major studios. Go back and read Earth in the Balance if you really want to know what drives Al Gore. Also, remember that it was his mother introducing the whole family to Rachel Carson’s The Silent Spring that helped shape Al Gore’s global ecological awareness, this while W was being as narrow as possible in his intellectual development. Stark contrast.

Maximum Bob,

Well put. Titillation has staying power.

waterfowler, I’m so cool with God, I’m frosty! Brrrrr! No, it was RRRRyan, that was complaining about looking up & catching lead shot from God with his eyeball. What’s that about?

On a similar thought, was God stoned when he made marijuana or was that that some sort of divine inspiration? Obviously this Born-Again faith-based Administration thinks God screwed up here, too, and is putting a massive effort into stamping all sources (except Afghanistan, of course) and punishing all users (except for Jenna and Barbara, of course). I’m just curious. What do you think?

Quote from Paul Begala, a Texan who hunts (found it on Talking Points Memo link), that both cuts to the heart of the matter and in which one could substitute the invasion of Iraq, and even more so the bombing of Iran, if it occurs:

“While hunting accidents do happen, this one may have been avoidable - if Mr. Cheney and his companions had been less trigger-happy and more prudent.”

you can hardly call this lady ranch owner a “White House lackey”.

My mistake on the stamp. Tx. now has an upland game bird and migratory game bird stamps, replacing the turkey, whitewing, and waterfowl as of Sept. ‘05. Just buy the “Super Combo” and you’re covered for all hunting & fishing.
Hang ‘em high.

“Paul Begala, a Texan that hunts”? I thought we ran him off w/ Sharon…

Murray, if the dude dies, then you may have your “Rovian distraction”.

rrryan, Scott McClellan just called, they have a job for you in the white house.

I haven’t seen spinning like rrryan since, well, since the last time scotty boy got up in front of the press to do his dog and pony show.

Fowler at least is honest enough to express his lack of desire to be around an armed dick cheney. Good for you for that.

Now that Mr. Whittington is experiencing complications from this harmless accident, I wonder what other anecdotes rrryan can pull from his behind to prove to us just how harmless these shotgun thingies are.

Fowler said it best, you pull the trigger, you’re responsible.

Oh, and rrryan, it’s a story because he’s the veep. For some reason people in power tend to make “stories” whatever they do. Even veeps who spend the bulk of their time in hidden bunkers.

And by the way, does anyone else think it’s odd that the this valentine’s week foursome included all married people but not too each other?

Hmmmmm, I wonder why there was a delay in reporting it? I wonder why the secret service would not all the CC police to interview the veep? After all, if you have nothing to hide…

My questions in the light of new developments are these; isn’t it a requirement to report a shooting incident such as this to the police immediately? since we have been completely lied to about the severity of the incident (Whittington now has a pellet lodged in or around his heart muscle), will charges be filed?, since the heart is located behind the lung, does this mean that the VP shot him in the back?, what if Whittington dies from this whole debacle? Will the VP be arrested for and charged with involuntary manslaughter? Will he prosecuted for violating the Fish & Game Regulations for failing to update his hunting license with a Whittington stamp? Inquiring minds want to know!

My spin on the whole story is this; some good old boys decided to go hunting and being good old boys they woke with the dawn had a few ’shots’ with breakfast. They grabbed their shotguns and proceeded to plunder the wilderness, since their freezers were empty and they rely on game fowl to feed their families. The discussion got heated and the VP got upset, suffered from a heart murmur (or the ’shots’) causing him to go weak in the kness and accidently shot Whittington.
At this point CSI should be sent to the scene before there is anymore opportunity to fou(w)l the crime scene.

I’m still astounded that this woman, having a potentially serious firearms accident on her property, allowed herself to be persuaded not to call 911. (I assume even Texas has 911, or something like it.) OK, Cheney’s medical team was on the spot, but still: the personal liability issues are mindboggling. I don’t think I personally would want to rely on a verbal, “We’ll make sure it’s OK” in a case like this…

I wondered about the possibility of some duck stamp $$ going to avian flu research. On one hand, it would be a shame to divert it from the refuges, but maybe if it was done for a year or two… I dunno. I sure hate to think about losing those clouds of birds in the valley.

Sorry, I meant “when”, not “if”.

OK, one more try, RRRRyan.

You complain that we are good at “skipping where I agree and stabbing where I don’t.” You just did the same thing to me.

I didn’t say that anyone who is a Republican must be a lackey; you put those words in my mouth. I said that this particular woman, this particular member of an old-money Texas ranching family, belongs to a family which has made enough major contributions to the Republican party that the VP is willing to go hunting on her ranch. I doubt seriously that he’d even go hunting on property that wasn’t owned by a major Republican contributor; access to his person is part of what the Republicans sell in exchange for the party contributions they get.

So here she is, a good Republican contributor, and the VP accidentally shoots a man on her property. In a situation like this, she’s willing to play by his rulebook, even at the expense of what I’d call common sense and adherence to the law. I’d say that makes her, specifically, a White House lackey.

Put yourself in her shoes. I assume you’re a Republican. If a man were hunting on your property, and accidentally shot someone, would you or would you not call 911? As I understand it, notifying the local authorities is a citizen’s responsibility in case of an accident with a lethal weapon. I don’t ask, would you call the newspapers? I ask, would you call 911? I don’t agree with you on much, but you don’t seem basically dishonest or a scofflaw, so I assume you would obey the law and notify the authorities of a gun accident. She didn’t.

Definitely, since a martyr would be dead and wouldn’t hear a word you said. For all its futility you haven’t missed an opportunity yet to either rip on me or try to convince others not to reason with me because of the futility of it all.

Like I’ve mentioned before, just because most avoid forums like this doesn’t mean there are not many likeminded to me. Among most of my Christian friends the question often comes up “How can a person be a Democrat and a Christian?” … No one knows because the only Christian Democrats we know have no excuse for their position, they just “are”. So this is one of my few opportunities to try to discover what makes a Democrat tick. If I were honest about all I was discovering in these forums I most certainly would offend pretty much everyone so I actually do practice a level of restraint when discussing things.

To try to put it mildly most democrats seem either disillusioned with religion or simply going through the motions while they rationalize pretty much anything they want to do. The bible is baseless, or at best a “good read”. Like Howard Dean Proverbs would be their favorite book of the New Testament and “Thou shalt not judge” their favorite verse. I did meet an actual Christian Democrat once that explained himself. He was in his sixties and said that the party today is not what it used to be. He said that he’s simply “holding out”. I’ve heard a few people refer to their faith fleetingly and one dude actually mangled up a bunch of scripture for me as us bible thumpers would say: using it out of context.

So what can I say? Religion is my favorite topic, but it is kind of useless to discuss it directly. So indirectly I can discover what makes you guys tick by discussing topics like abortion, or even truth, or just ramble about daily events in hopes that one of you will reveal to me what I’m so suspicious of. Facts and truth don’t mean diddly, you just hate the President, everything he stands for, and anyone around him. Except maybe Condi since that would be racist and chauvinist at the same time. Secretly hoping she’s a lesbian too.

Yes, we both are on fairly futile ground when we discuss anything if you look at it from the perspective of trying to convince each other that the other is wrong. I find this ground quite fruitful though in trying to understand the opinions that are flying around, what they’re based on, and why I believe what I do. All of that seems to come up here. I’m no martyr, this isn’t suffering, I’m here because I spend every day with like minded people. It does get boring, even if I do agree with them.

I have to make a confession to the group and in hindsight, I feel more than a little ashamed that I did not see it before now. I must admit that the first impression I had of him was that he was some misguided 12 year old, alone in his room with a computer - his parents not caring enough to monitor his on-line time. But I’ve just had an epiphany and I don’t know why I didn’t see it sooner - the incoherent babble; the non-linear thinking; dyslexic world view; the religious symbolism; the mealy-mouthed pieties. This interloper, with too much time on his hands, who choses from time to time to elbow his way into our forum is not some Celtic stutterer; not some kilt-besotted, Tam-o’Shantered Scotsman but it’s none other than George Walker Bush, the President of the United States of America, hiding behind the screen name of “RRRRyan”. What a fool I’ve been!

I have to take a different tack on this one. I think RRRRyan is who he says he is, and he’s posting for the reason he says. I do think he is a true believer regarding George Bush, which is pretty pervasive among southern fundamentalist Protestants. An exception are one of my cousins, who now lives in North Carolina, and her husband, a fundamentalist Protestant preacher. They both see through Bush, and in fact consider the Republican machine disingenuous regarding abortion, which they oppose. They do not believe the machine, for political reasons, will ever actually seek to overturn Roe v. Wade.

On fiscal issues and such things as social security, medicare, and education, along with most everything else, they find Democratic positions on the issues superior to Republican positions. That’s how an anti-abortion southern fundamentalist can be a Democrat. By the way, they took a lot of heat from their congregation for choosing Kerry over Bush, because among other things they recognized Kerry was actually much more honest.

Bush is our first cult president.

David, it is nice that you at least pass on an iota of credit. That’s encouraging.

I’m going to have to agree with RRRyan on this one. It is always worth while to know how other people think. I have had a couple of conversations with David, Hedra, on her blog and here, and RRRyan where, while agreement was not reached, a certain understanding was. I am probably more religious than most of the “regulars” here, although it is a different stripe than RRRyan’s, and I find his viewpoint valuable to try and figure out where he is coming from. Think how valuable this would have been in Iraq.

Like it or not, some form of middle ground is going to need to be reached to put our country back together. I THINK most people would prefer a common ground approach to our country’s problems. As long as we stay firmly in two camps the more liberal side will usually lose because they aren’t united or motivated enough to effect a change. Everyone has the issues that are important to them. It is a lot easier to motivate a vote FOR something than AGAINST something, in most cases.

I was under the impression that we were allowed a free expression of ideas? Isn’t the point for everyone to talk out things together? I don’t want to be guilty of the same pig headedness that I see in the President and his crowd. There are few absolutes to politics. That is why the Right has won the last few elections. They find their absolutes in their lives through their faith then apply it to their politics. I have a good friend who said to me during the last election cycle, “The only issues that matter are abortion and gay marriage” Now while I personally am opposed to both, I don’t see them as the end-all-and-be-all causes. She did. You can’t fight that until you understand why she feels that way. I have seen other disagreements in the forum, why not disagree with RRRyan? I think we are all adult enough to disagree without snide remarks and questions about his intelligence. Didn’t Adam chide the group a couple threads back for not playing nice enough in the sandbox?

I’ll gladly respond positively to anything that makes sense to me. Your post above, however, doesn’t make much sense, and your characterization of Kerry doesn’t square with his track record. Your anti-ACLU vitriol sounds like something Pat (Kill a Commie for Christ) Robertson would say.

On KJB literalism, which makes no sense to me, it is of value only to a limited number of Christians. It is of no value to humanity as a whole. Some of Christ’s teachings very much are, as are many teachings of the world’s various great teachers.

I think the hardest thing for any literalist adherent to any religious belief system to even acknowledge the possibility of is that he or she has no monoply on spiritual truths. You might have discovered a way that works for you, but you have not discovered The Way, partly because there is no such thing regarding religion or the soul.

Murray, I really appreciate your post. I was wrong to call David names. He did handle it gracefully. It was nice.

I’m not about to go read all of our posts to make an itemized list of where the words ignorance and futility are mentioned. To me those are every bit as insulting.

Nope, I am not a student. I’m actually a decade out of undergrad.

Please do elaborate. What contradictions do you see? Could you give me one? I’d love to know if I’ve got some Jeckle/Hyde thing going. I’ll be happy to laugh at myself with you if so.

You must have one on the tip of your brain to make the accusation correct?

I don’t think RRRRyan is stupid or childish. I believe him to be sincere. I just think he’s wrong on many important issues, and that his reasoning is often shaky. I had actually crafted a brilliant(!) response to his notion that you could judge a person’s fitness for political office by his level of marital fidelity, when he announced that he was dropping out of this forum. By the time he returned, it was no longer relevant.
But as others have said elsewhere more eloquently, you cannot have a reasoned dialog—which is absolutely vital in a democracy—with anyone who believes that he knows the clear will of *God*. That person can always fall back on religious dogma as authority for his position. Perhaps we could each adopt a different set of myths (Adam has the Great Lobster, others have the FSM, someone can take the Norse gods…) and have a debate based on those values. I’m pretty sure that someone gets to defend ritual human sacrifice that way!

RRRRyan (how the hell many Rs are in that name, anyway, and why?) is sure of the existence of a supreme being, and I’m quite comfortably an atheist. For a democracy like ours, we must find the values that we can all agree on and base our laws on that. I like the Constitution, for example, but I will strenuously resist any attempt at imposing religious values through legislation.

Slightly off-topic but sure to be obnoxious: If so many religious conservatives are convinced that homosexuality is a choice and thus should not be protected, how do they respond to the obvious fact that religous orientation is also a choice? I’m sure that more Americans change their religion in their lifetimes than change their sexual orientation! Why should religion thus be a protected category?

Murray,

For the record, I have never felt attacked on the forum. Probably because I agree with MOST of what is said. Mostly I read and lurk, posting occasionally when the mood strikes. (My wife thinks I’m nuts, but…) I have noticed though that RRRyan (What are all the R’s for?) seems to catch more than his share of abuse for his opinions. Just like he won’t convert you with his religious arguments, I doubt he will be converted by being told he can’t make his own rational thoughts. That was the purpose of the above post. Doesn’t bother me if you don’t agree with me. I get that alot!

Ann,

As a conservative, religious person, I don’t think a person’s right to chose should ever be unprotected. I believe that God wants us to make our choices the best we can, and in fact would never force us to do anything. Homosexuality to me is a sexual sin just like adultery and fornication. Your choice whether or not you participate.
I am however a big advocate of having to live with the consequences of your actions.

The recruiters working International Drive (Disney World area) are using free i-pods as an incentive to sign up (starting at 17 with parents’ permission), and then after four years in The Lifestyle, the new recruits are eligible for up to $50K in college financial assistance.
GCTC programs are in the works (Gender Choice Training Corps) at some of the premier Left Coast and Big Apple universities.

RRRRyan,

Some of your anger could appropriately be directed at the Reagan administration for its deadly delay in responding to AIDS as a medical crisis with very real pandemic implications from the get go. To state the scientifically obvious, arguing that homosexuality is a personal choice is as absurd as arguing that life didn’t evolve.

Rational people practice safe sex and follow scientific evidence wherever it logically leads.

Felberpalooza,
Lotsa booza,
Maybe some schmooza,
Nobody a looza,
Fanatical Apathists, it’s for youza,
Courtesy of Murray, that’s a whooza.

By Loosely Wrapped Masta Beta

(Why does Annie put line spaces in the preview that aren’t in the panel in which I type? Huh, Annie? You gotta quit fuckin’ with our stuff.)

“Masta Beta”? Daaaaviddddd! You de MAN!

He’s now calling himself Loosely Raptmasta Beta. It came to him last night.

The Rapt is because of his fascination with the Rapture. Nekkid bodies rising through the air, as if by magic - whoa.

No whoopweed - never been able to smoke anything. The loosely is for not tightly, but not tightly wrapped is insufficiently ambiguous. Loosely enraptured comes into counterplay, as does the play on not tightly wrapped/the Rapture. Load ‘em up and sling ‘em out. Just watch what you draw.

Loosely Raptmasta Beta apparently doesn’t know who Otto the busdriver is, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not channeling him. He has no idea where this shit comes from. He just watches his fingers hit the keys as the post appears before his eyes.

Go, Dale, Jr. - what the hell you doin’ in 9th? (Dale, Jr. took his entire crew to see Fahrenheit 9/11).

And here in San Francisco, our alternative to Otto’s bus is BART. Coincidence? I think not.