From CNN (AP wire) today:
WASHINGTON — Sen. John McCain and President Bush’s national security adviser remained at an impasse Wednesday over the senator’s proposed ban on cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of foreign terrorism suspects.
“At this point, discussions are ongoing,” national security adviser Stephen Hadley told The Associated Press as he left McCain’s Capitol Hill office after a meeting that lasted just over an hour…
You’ve heard a lot of bluster from Senator McCain, and a lot of patience from the administration. The United States doesn’t torture. We KNOW that. So, is McCain just being a stickler? (yes) Does his amendment go too far? (it sure does) Will it hamper our ability to interrogate in an effective and timely manner? (you bet it will) Is John McCain a little too close to this issue and maybe a little “not right in the head” about it? (hey, you said it, not me, but now that you bring it up it sure looks like it)
We’ll examine the whole issue and let you draw your own conclusions (McCain’s kind of a nutjob).
Let’s begin by looking at some of the amendment that’s at issue. It’s all really, really technical, so you probably won’t understand its nuances and you might not see immediately why it helps the enemy kill us. First:
SEC. __. UNIFORM STANDARDS FOR THE INTERROGATION OF PERSONS UNDER THE DETENTION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE.
(a) IN GENERAL.–No person in the custody or under the effective control of the Department of Defense or under detention in a Department of Defense facility shall be subject to any treatment or technique of interrogation not authorized by and listed in the United States Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation.
(b) APPLICABILITY.–Subsection (a) shall not apply to with respect to any person in the custody or under the effective control of the Department of Defense pursuant to a criminal law or immigration law of the United States.
(c) CONSTRUCTION.–Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect the rights under the United States Constitution of any person in the custody or under the physical jurisdiction of the United States.
Wow. See that? Think about it: If someone’s captured or detained by the US military and not accused of anything specific, the DoD is obliged to follow the standards of the US Army when it comes to interrogation!
Some of you might suspect that this effectively closes the Gonzales Loophole. Exactly. It basically says the United States is automatically bound by some standard or another of prisoner-treatment rules, no matter who they capture! It takes away the US’s right to have prisoners that fall under no official rules whatsoever. Think about that. Is that the kind of world you want to live in?
As I said, it’s all very, very technical. But let’s press on:
SEC. __. PROHIBITION ON CRUEL, INHUMAN, OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT OF PERSONS UNDER CUSTODY OR CONTROL OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
(a) In General.–No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.
(b) Construction.–Nothing in this section shall be construed to impose any geographical limitation on the applicability of the prohibition against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment under this section.
(c) Limitation on Supersedure.–The provisions of this section shall not be superseded, except by a provision of law enacted after the date of the enactment of this Act which specifically repeals, modifies, or supersedes the provisions of this section.
Wow. Talk about closing loopholes! This section comes right out and says that it can’t be secretly superseded. No matter where the prisoners are! Even if they’re at a facility that doesn’t technically exist. What’s the point of secret prisons and secret prisoners if we can’t have secret rules for them? Why, we’d might as well be abiding by the Geneva Convention when you put it that way. Is THAT what McCain’s really getting at? [Geneva’s in Europe, by the way. Right near the French border.]
Also, the Bush administration objects to those weasel-words, “cruel, inhuman, or degrading.” Those terms are just an open invitation for peaceniks and so-called “prisoners’” so-called “families” to sue the United States into another recession. How do you define those terms, anyway?
Oh, wait - there’s this next section:
(d) Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment Defined.–In this section, the term “cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'’ means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, as defined in the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment done at New York, December 10, 1984.
All right, the gloves are off. It all comes back to some antiquated 20 year-old definition that McCain found in some musty old book. From before 9/11. 9/11. 9/11. [Sorry, I’m having some trouble with my keyboard 9/11 9/11 9/11]
But no, you’re not imagining this. McCain’s amendment defines “torture,” more or less, as “something that is officially defined as torture by the United States of America.” Pretty sneaky, huh? The ol’ bait-n-switch. Or something. Is that the kind of country we want to be living in?
Still not convinced? Hold the phone.
Some of you might be tempted to think that this is the whole debate. You might get the idea that this is all McCain is asking for and that it’s pretty clear and that all this amendment does is prevent any US military or intelligence employee from torturing prisoners. I want to caution you that there’s a lot of subtlety at play here, that things are not what they seem (if they seem that way). It’s very complicated, and there’s a lot of legalese and complex stuff and if I posted the entire amendment you wouldn’t understand it but if you did you’d see why the Bush administration can’t really agree to it and still protect our country and…
Oh, wait. That is the entire amendment.
Oh.
Well, rest assured that it’s not as clear-cut as you might think (if you think McCain’s right). There are… things. To consider. Technicalities. Tons of ‘em, in fact. Yes, tons of technicalities and consequences and repercussions that extend in lots of unexpected ways from this seemingly simple and clear prohibition of torture. Yes. That’s why it may look like McCain has offered a politically and morally and strategically unassailable amendment, and it may look like the Bush administration opposes it just because they want to use cruel and inhumane techniques in some circumstances… that’s why it may look that way but it totally isn’t that way at all and you’d know that if you were smarter.
So if McCain wins this stalemate and this thing becomes law and the terrorists win, you’ll know who to thank. As I said, make up your own mind. I’m just offering the facts. As an American, you’re free to your own opinion and there are many sides to any debate.
[By the way, McCain spent five years as a prisoner, being tortured. That can do things to a man’s head. Not saying it has, but, you know, it can. That’s all I’m saying.]





23 comments
tw
December 14, 2005 at 6:02 pm
1McCain for President!
David
December 14, 2005 at 6:27 pm
2DoD is revising the manual regarding torture - guess they’ve decided to cover all bases, although I don’t see why all the fuss, since, as has been repeatedly pointed out by Bush, Rice, and a wino who lives behind the K-Mart in Clermont, the United States has never, does not now, and will never engage in torture. Which part of “the US does not engage in torture” does McCain not understand, and why does he not understand that the US must not be prohibited from doing what it does not do?
(Enter a Middle Eastern male escorted by two CIA agents not doing what they are doing as part of America’s GWOT - the Middle Eastern male, a Canadian citizen, not wanting to be the object of something the US does not do, is singing “I’m leaving on a jet plane, Don’t know when I’ll be back again…”
ice weasel
December 14, 2005 at 6:37 pm
3Don’t forget though, McCain is the man that been hugging shrubbie a lot in public and voted to confirm Gonzales. A little inconsistency never hurt anyone (especially someone with presidential ambitions).
The big problem with this is the layers of bullshit one has to shovel through to get anywhere.
For instance, this “war on terra” that gutless george likes to prattle on about. Now, not many Americans, even the lily-livered left coasters, would object to some fairly stringent measures in tracking the man who orchestrated the brutal killing of more than 3,000 American in September of 2001. However, that guy isn’t in Iraq. And as far anyone knows, hasn’t been in Iraq for years and years, if ever. It’s also accepted by most everyone who doesn’t suck as the faux newz teat that no one in Iraq had anything to do with that tragedy of September 2001. So the idea that we’re torturing a lot of irrelevant guys in Iraq seems a bit, well, kind of kinky, no?
It’s seems unlikely your average cab driver from Mosul knows where bin Laden is. Yet, there we were to string up the bastard and, well, I suppose get some information out of him.
So the first layer of bullshit I’m talking about is the idea that we need a “free and unfettered hand” to torture people who, a priori, really don’t know jack shit about what we’re looking for. Can’t these sadists torture someone else, on somebody else’s dime?
Another layer of fertilizer; the idea that torture gets us anywhere. Hey, let’s pretend, and why not, that you’re a big bad interrogator and I’m an intransigent PUC. I may or may not, (but as we pointed above, pretty much in every circumstance, not) have the information you want. So you have you battery cables attached to testicles and you’re running 220 volts through them. You’ve got a red hot poker up my ass and what I think are rabid dogs chewing on the flesh of thigh. Now, unless I am fucking super-terrorist, why won’t I tell you anything in the world to get you off my fucking back?
Oh, I will actually, hence the quality of our “intelligence”.
I could go on and on but it would only further constipate certain pre-pate contributors here and I have no desire to rile people unnecessarily. Aside from adding, once you factor in the damage this torture fetish that unca dick and rummy has done to this nation, it’s really an easy to call to make, isn’t it?
This is a national shame and frankly, the idea that we have so calmly tolerated this from our government is sickening. Sure, we’ve always, very secretly done some really nasty shit. But this is the first time the kinksters in charge of the Whips & Chains Department have wanted to have the public law actually back them up.
As I’ve mentioned to more than a few acquaintances, self-described moderates, who saw bush as the right “security” choice, your children will piss on your grave for your bad decision. And all I can add is, and well they should too.
Sammy Spellchecker
December 14, 2005 at 6:38 pm
4“antiquated”, not “antequated”.
Not anywhere near as amusing as “genereal”.
Talk about torture — this is a tortured reason for leaving a comment.
Adam Felber
December 14, 2005 at 7:02 pm
5Thanks, Sammy. 4-hour rule is in effect.
-the editor
Mojo
December 14, 2005 at 7:36 pm
6Well no wonder Hadley won’t agree. As I’m sure his Chief of Staff Sammy Spellchecker mentioned to him, the document contains a grammatical error (”Subsection (a) shall not apply to with respect to any person in the custody …”). It needs to say either “shall not apply to any person…” or “shall not apply with respect to any person…” As it is, it’s just an invitation to Al Qaeda to come take away our Freedom. Sure, Hadley could simply tell McCain that the problem is just those few words, but that would show weakness and we don’t dare do that in this post-9/11 world.
(P.S. All grammatical or spelling errors in this post were inserted by my political opponents.)
Bob
December 14, 2005 at 7:39 pm
7Certainly McCain is right on this issue. And he’s generally right about campaign finance. Although I was at one time at least intrigued by the implications of a McCain presidency, I now hope that it will never happen. Here are three reasons:
McCain believes that “Intelligent Design” should be integrated into the science curriculum of public schools.
In the 2000 South Carolina primaries, McCain defended the inclusion of the confederate flag in the South Carolina state flag, saying it was strictly the business of South Carolinians. After he lost the primary, he said it was a racist vestige and should be eliminated from the flag and admitted that he had been lying in order to get votes.
During the Clinton administration McCain told a homophobic and rather grotesque joke involving Hillary Clinton, Janet Reno, and Chelsea Clinton (who was a child at the time). From what I recall, the joke was so off that even the conservative audience gasped upon hearing it.
Bonus reason: McCain campaigned heavily for Bush in 2004.
McCain, although at times on the correct side of an issue, is nonetheless a conservative, at times politically calculating, and at times just way, way off.
Steve
December 14, 2005 at 8:00 pm
8Removing the Spellchecker hat and putting on the Steve hat, a slightly more substantive comment:
As blogger Tom Parmenter put it:
John McCain = Bush - torture
Siobhan Ruck
December 14, 2005 at 9:45 pm
9It’s much better to have someone you don’t always agree with do something good then to have someone you support do something craven. The size of the vote for his amendment shows that it rises above being a red/blue issue - but if you want to get traction in this congress, it’s gotta come from that side of the aisle. I’m just happy that someone spoke up instead of toeing the line.
SeattleDan
December 14, 2005 at 9:48 pm
10How do we know that during the years of McCain’s captivity in North Viet Nam, that some sort of brainwashing didn’t occur anyway? Hmm? How do we know that he wont be the Hanoi Candidate if he runs in ‘08?
Pete IVDL
December 15, 2005 at 4:56 am
11Can someone please remind me why it’s necessary to even discuss an amendment that states that the US will agree to abide by an agreement it was a signatory to just twenty years ago?
What is it with these morons - now they have to put in writing the fact that they agree that people of “Middle Eastern” appearance are now actually people after all?
Steve, I think the equation can be further clarified. In terms of this discussion,
Bush = Hitler - intelligence.
David
December 15, 2005 at 12:00 pm
12Pete in IVDL,
You’ve got to quit pussy-footing around. And if your formulation is correct, there is the good news part: Bush is not intelligent enough to pull it off (although I suspect that is how he pleasures himself, a la the joke on the Comedy Central end-of-year special about Bush being caught masturbating on the Constitution - raw humor for a truly raw period in American history).
Murray
December 15, 2005 at 12:11 pm
13Wait a minute!
What if a terrorist is captured and he just planted a nuclear weapon with a TICKING CLOCK trigger mechanism, (electronic won’t do, too quiet). We need to get his information before the TICKING TIME BOMB goes off killing everyone in a 100 mile radius! And what if he has a 5 year old child strapped to the bomb, and what if she is really cute and white? Wouldn’t we want to do anything to stop this fiend? And what if the building you were questioning him in were on fire and you had only a short time to get this information from him before you were forced to leave for another place that wasn’t as convenient for this sort of activity? And what if a hurricane were coming straight for the city and would prevent your going to another facility? And what if he just said something about your mother and her choice of footwear and her choice of sexual partners that made you really mad? Wouldn’t you want a law that allows you to torture him? I mean you’re going to do it anyways and who’s going to believe the terrorist, but wouldn’t you really rather have your conscience soothed with a legal cover? So what if the terrorist is willing to die for his cause and will probably give you misleading info to maximize the destructive power of the bomb, this is your chance to f*** with him, why can’t the law just give you that?
Harold
December 15, 2005 at 2:33 pm
14I’ve always wondered: if torture is so effective, why restrict it to terrorists? Say you’ve caught somebody that you KNOW is a kidnapper, but you haven’t found the kidnapee. If torture is effective, why not use it here? Or if someone was an accomplice in a murder, but won’t give up the name of the murderer without a little encouragement? Or if you caught the guy who stole your car, but haven’t found your car yet? Or howabout that guy who cut you off in traffic, or that truck driver who’s riding your butt on the highway? Or those kids who keep trampling your flowers, no matter how many times you yell at them? Or those idiots who voted for Bush? Shouldn’t they be taught the error of their ways in a manner that brings it home for them? If torture is effective, hell, let’s make it the ONLY punishment for any criminal OR civil infraction!
David
December 15, 2005 at 2:58 pm
15Let’s assume for argument’s sake the fallacy that torture is a reliable source of useful information, especially when the torturee is a zealot. There is no need to make torture lawful, at least not in the Anglo-American legal tradition. We have what is known as the necessity defense. The defendant acknowledges that he or she committed a crime, but in the process prevented a greater crime from occurring. If the defendant (or defendant’s legal team) can convince a jury that the defendant is correct, then the jury can acquit the defendant. This means that 1) the legal system has been preserved; 2) our sense of right and wrong has been vindicated without compromising our code of justice; and 3) a greater crime actually was prevented without giving carte blanche to lawlessness.
Pity these bastards have no respect for the Constitution, the law, the common law tradition, justice, or human decency.
So McCain is going to agree to “tweaking” on the issue of torture. Maybe he is also amenable to “tweaking” the Bill of Rights.
David
December 15, 2005 at 3:08 pm
16Off thread, but an excerpt from an article on TomPaine that was just too damned on-target not to cut-and-paste:
As Chas Freeman, the former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, once told me about Iraq: “Sometimes, when you’ve driven your car off a cliff, there are just no good options on the way down.”
As Harold Pinter said recently :
The invasion of Iraq was a bandit act, an act of blatant state terrorism, demonstrating absolute contempt for the concept of international law. The invasion was an arbitrary military action inspired by a series of lies upon lies and gross manipulation of the media and therefore of the public; an act intended to consolidate American military and economic control of the Middle East masquerading as a last resort all other justifications having failed to justify themselves as liberation. A formidable assertion of military force responsible for the death and mutilation of thousands and thousands of innocent people.
True, that.
Poppy
December 15, 2005 at 6:02 pm
17David,
Masturbating into a coffin one of the Skull and Bones rituals. I don’t know if they’ve thrown in a copy of the Constitution, but I must say, it sounds like something George would have done in those days.
Smiley
December 16, 2005 at 2:30 am
18You crack me up.
Bookmarked!
Pete IVDL
December 16, 2005 at 5:18 pm
19Errrm… anyone else unable to comment on the next topic? I’ve been trying for 20 mins now…
Jim
December 16, 2005 at 8:53 pm
20Pete,
I had the same problem, so I’m just going to post my comments for the next topic here.
“My pick for the Felberpalooza entertainment:
Book Peter Schickele to conduct compositions of PDQ Bach.
Satirical music for a satiricla blogmeister.
I forget the name of the piece, but one of the most hilarious compositions was a dirge composed for calliope.”
I sent Adam an e-mail about the problem.
Pete IVDL
December 17, 2005 at 10:28 am
21Jim, I’m with you. It’s 10 hours later and I still can’t post. So…
You coulda been someone, dude. Billy Joel?
And FWIW, if I were you, I’d be posting the photo here, where all your friends and admirers hang out (something unutterably sad about that phrase…), and thereby pull the rug of blackmail from under Sis’ feet. We understand, really we do. I’m sure Murray has some lovely shots of himself all hot & sweaty in Lycra. Shoot, somewhere in the Downunder Archives there’s a photo of someone who looks a lot like me with black eyeshadow and nail polish (I swear it was a Masquerade Ball, honest).
By the way, Susie, if I may make a suggestion, try using “mwuhahaha” as your ev-ill titter : ‘moo hahaha’ sorta sounds like you might have contracted Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy in your university days…
Oh - and can you tell from the photo if Adam dresses to the left or right? Jean-Luc definitely dresses to the left (which of course makes him right-handed). Het that image outta your head! MWUUUUHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Pete IVDL
December 18, 2005 at 4:23 pm
22Ooooh - I can post now! Woo hoo! Errr… Damn, I’ve said it all in other topics. Sigh.
Murray
December 18, 2005 at 9:18 pm
23Peter Schickele, great idea. I love his piece that blends the 1812 Overture with Pop Goes the Weasel.
In 1985 I met Billy Joel and his then Fiancé Christy Brinkley at his condo on Central Park South but I truly doubt he remembers me.
I do like Jethro Tull and often while subbing in high school find my self singing under my breath, Aqualung
“Sitting on a park bench, eyeing little girls with bad intent, Oh Aqualung my friend,
Snot running down his nose, greasy fingers smearing shabby cloths, Oh Aqualung my friend”. (You get the picture)
Although it would be hard to beat Cheryl Wheeler for funny, poignant, beautiful sounding, and she’s sort of local.