As governor of Texas, Bush said students should be exposed to both creationism and evolution. On Monday the president said he favors the same approach for intelligent design “so people can understand what the debate is about.”
- from Knight-Ridder
Somewhere on a hillside of such unimaginable size that it is dotted with “dandelions” that are in fact galaxies, stands a gargantuan, omnipotent lobster. The light of a billion suns sparkles off his benevolent thorax, and his cosmic antennae receive the information from a trillion worlds at speeds that make “light” look like the crosstown local. He is looking at us right now, and if you were to look closely you’d see that a single tear is currently dropping from one all-loving eyestalk.
Prove that it’s not.
-me, from here
————–
I’ve already posted things about Intelligent Design a couple of times. The admirable evolution group-blog, The Panda’s Thumb, manages to keep an eye on the subject as well (though they do so without any mention of a benevolent, all-knowing super-lobster, which sadly betrays their ignorance of the burgeoning field of Scientific Crustaceanism. Nobody’s perfect.).
So you’re thinking, “Hey Adam, isn’t Bush’s recent statement just a revivification of the whole “Scopes Monkey” thing? Is this somehow different? Should we be any more upset than if Bush was once again advocating teaching creationism? Isn’t Intelligent Design more or less the same thing as creationism from an educational perspective? Are you keeping track of all your rhetorical questions so that your number of answers matches up with your number of questions?”
In short: No, yes, yes, and no.
What it comes down to is that the President, like so many other God-fearing Americans, has jumped on board with the program of exploring the new “science” of an intelligently-designed universe. The debate always goes more or less like this:
GOD FEARING GUY: Clearly there’s a debate, so we’d ought to teach this “Intelligent Design” stuff alongside evolution in the classroom.
SCIENCE NERD: There’s no ‘debate!’ It’s not science! See, a scientific paper must adhere to certain standards, have a clear logical structure, and be submitted for peer review before it can -
GOD FEARING GUY: There are a whole lot of scientists who don’t agree with you on that, pardner.
SCIENCE NERD: Not really - see, those guys are either fake scientists or real ones with religious agendas. Not a single paper about Intelligent Design has stood up to -
GOD FEARING GUY: This is getting complicated.
SCIENCE NERD: [pause] Well, it is science.
GOD FEARING GUY: Okayyyy… [pause] So… clearly there’s a debate, so we’d ought to teach this “Intelligent Design” stuff alongside evolution in the classroom.
[repeat and fade]
I’ve covered this before, so I’ll try something new. What would a real science of Intelligent Design look like?
It would have to define what is meant by “intelligence,” first and foremost. It would then have to scientifically prove the term: What are things that are designed by intelligences? How are they different from things that are not? What tests definitively differentiate a designed thing from a non-designed thing? Having established that, it would then look at living things and see if they met those criteria.
Intelligent Design hasn’t gotten that far. It doesn’t have to in order to get what it wants. ID goes about it this way:
Imagine that there are a bunch of rogue “mathematicians” who question whether long division really works. “Probably not,” they posit. “The real truth of how many times one thing can fit into another can only be known by a gigantic, omnipotent, and all-dividing lobster, and its existence ought to be taught alongside so-called ‘mathematical’ division.”
Your real mathematicians would point to the many, many instances where long division works. “Look at 1150 divided by 3,” they’d say. “Long division tells us that it’s 383 and a third, and if we count out 1150 lima beans and divide them into three equal groups, you’d see… oh, damn, dropped a bean, let me start again. Okay, here we go…”
Forty minutes later the mathematicians would have three piles of 383 beans and a single bean left over. Wiping the sweat from their brows (they really ought to get more exercise), they’d point to the beans and say, “Ha! See? Long division works.”
The Divisional Crustaceanists would look down at the table and say, “Not bad. This ‘long division’ seems to work for that particular case, at least in theory. But what about 41,547 divided by 16? That’s a toughie. Surely that amount can only be known by the Lobster. Only the Great Eyestalk could see that.”
There would be a dangerous silence. “Let me get more beans,” the youngest of the mathematicians would say finally.
“Fine, fine,” our Lobsterticians would reply. “But while you’re doing that, let’s agree that the jury’s still out on this one…”
Science is a little more complicated than arithmetic. Most people can understand basic arithmetic without their eyes glazing over, which is why we Lobster-worshippers haven’t make any inroads into the math textbooks (not yet, in any case…). But if you accept that science works at all, the actual progress of this “debate” isn’t much different from the above.
And as the President so cogently pointed out, having a “debate” is the whole point. As long as the Lobsterticians don’t accept the logic underlying long division and insist on taking it case-by-case, they can contend that it’s still an open question, knowing that they’ll be able to keep suggesting numbers long after the mathematicians have run out of lima beans. Meanwhile, our kids will be taught that a prayer to the Divine Thorax might be as effective as division when budgeting their allowances.
This may not be a completely accurate method, but it’ll stand the little tykes in good stead when the Time of the Hatching comes about. Which is what’s really important here, when you think about it.





69 comments
Pingback from the dubious biologist » Blog Archive » Fanatical Apathy - The Return of the Lobster
August 3, 2005 at 8:46 pm
Pete IVDL
August 3, 2005 at 6:36 pm
1Shouldn’t that have read “No, yes, yes, no, and no“? Or is the final “no” implied because it’s obvious that it isn’t and therefore it is?
Pete IVDL
August 3, 2005 at 6:54 pm
2(OK, I admit it, my last “response” was a placeholder…)
You’ve pretty much skewered the issue right through the portico. It’s the age-old problem of the god-fearing bullies standing in a circle around the poor defenceless nerd, throwing said nerd’s hat from one to the other while the nerd, scuffed-kneed and rumple-shirted, tries to calculate the shortest intercept path. (I’m not going to re-read that analogy because it really won’t stand up to scrutiny. A bit like ID.)
I just can’t believe Dubya is going on holidays again. Does he think he’s back in primary school or something? He’s really starting to strike me as one of those kids who delights in sticking a cracker in an ant’s nest, then telling all the little kids there are lollies underneath, then doesn’t even hang around to watch the screaming. Although I’m sure he’ll be quick to change into his SuperConservative cape and fly to any troublespots like Alaska or Washington or the UN to save the world. Ugh, he really does creep me out…
I really, really liked Adam’s original depiction of the Lobster’s Tear, and seeing it again confirms my suspicion - I’m buyin’ Adam’s darn book when it comes out! It better have Lobsters in it. Or at least a Lobster Recipe. (So, would a recipe for Lobster Mornay be equivalent to the Necronomicon?)
jacqui
August 3, 2005 at 7:24 pm
3you are overlooking one other important and dastardly complication–the increasing belief by twits, i mean the general populace, that ’science’ (usually said by such persons while making quote marks in the air with fingers) is a contrary, arbitrary and make-believe force.
example: you ’scientists’ can say animal research didn’t start the AIDs epidemic, but we know better because Sal got food poisoning that one time from undercooked steak. you are just making stuff up because you are being paid by the powerful beef lobby and there is no such thing as ‘independent’ research. sure, these studies were reported after rigorous review in Nature and Science but they are just puppets of the multinational conspiracy to propagate godlessness, meat-eating and safe sex.
realistically, one cannot eliminate the ‘debate’ about ID because there is no way to critically discuss it, let alone peer-review it. let’s say you set up an experiment of selection where the selection criteria are arbitrary and lead to a grotesque outcome. you then demonstrate conclusively propagation according to said criteria. ID proponents will argue that ‘the intelligent designer’ wanted to foment further discussion on the issue and so chose not to reveal his hand by preventing propagation of the grotesque. and so it goes.
personally, i think we should be more upset than if the agenda-laden clod was championing pure creationism. at least that does not attempt to destroy the integrity of science, the scientific method and the process of critical thinking.
geez, we wacky scientist/elitists get bent about the smallest things…
Bob
August 3, 2005 at 8:19 pm
4The “clearly there’s a debate” phrase seems to be the troglodytes’ magic bullet. There was doubt about Kerry’s military service and doubt about Bush’s, so the two men are more or less equivalent in that regard, no? Never mind that in Kerry’s case we’re not sure if he actually spent one Christmas eve in Cambodia, and in Bush’s case we don’t know where the hell he was for the better part of a year. There’s uncertainty, and uncertainty confers equivalence.
One other thing: in the pursuit of better PR for our side, we need to dump SCIENCE NERD for SQUARE-JAWED SCIENTIST WITH GOOD HAIR. No, I don’t know where to find him, either.
madbard
August 3, 2005 at 8:51 pm
6why they are right here: StudMuffins of Science.
and it is good to have a G*d that goes well with lemon and butter.
[on a serious note: there really is little to do but mock them.]
cooper
August 3, 2005 at 8:59 pm
7Yes Pete, he’s on vacation again, this time for 35 days. Nice work, if you can get it. When he comes back to DC, he will have taken 322 days vacation at his Crawford ranch since becoming president. Nearly one year out of the five he’s been in office, he’s been the the consummate slacker. (BTW, do all Republican presidents spend their off hours cutting brush, what’s with that?) Of course, compared to his previous jobs, he’s really overachieving these days and at least he’s not drunk anymore … is he?
Religion? Lobsters in high places? Don’t get me started!
Jim
August 3, 2005 at 9:24 pm
8From Adam’s post:
“What are things that are designed by intelligences? How are they different from things that are not? What tests definitively differentiate a designed thing from a non-designed thing? Having established that, it would then look at living things and see if they met those criteria.”
Unfortunately, this is an impossibility from the IDiots’ perspective because according to them, the “intelligent designer designed EVERYTHING. From mountains to the makers of molehills(…therefore by proxy the molehills themselves), from entire galaxies to subatomic particles. In the ID world, there is nothing that is not a product of design. Therefore true empirical data cannot work in their “debate.”
Thank Lobster for Intelligent Crustaceanism. To paraphrase Adam “prove that the Cosmological Lobster doesn’t exist.”
Livescience.com addresses the situation with the scientific definition of theory vs. the uninformed population’s idea of theory.
By the way MadBard, I only saw one “hottie” scientist. Does he take up the whole calendar?
Ann
August 3, 2005 at 9:47 pm
9Right, Jim. That’s just the point I wanted to make.
As for the watchmaker analogy, it fails because of its very structure. You can’t contrast watches (designed) to nature (undesigned) as a proof that nature is designed!
Ann
August 3, 2005 at 9:48 pm
10Also, where can I see pictures of the other hot scientists? Purely for research purposes, you know.
Murray
August 3, 2005 at 9:53 pm
11So, if you were walking along a beach and found a watch, would you conclude that nature had made it by evolution? What if you found a lobster wearing a Rolex? Would that be intelligent design or God showing off his bling bling, (I can’t believe I just used those words). What if you went swimming and couldn’t find your glasses when you came out? Would that be unintelligent design or aliens out for a laugh? (OK that’s kind of a private joke, ask me if you want to know more).
What is more frustrating than trying to explain science to an anti-scientist? Oh, I don’t know, maybe trying to push sand upstream, getting a Democrat to stand up for his beliefs, finding a caring understanding, giving Republican, trying to hit the lottery and get hit by lightning at the same time.
Really Adam, what would you expect the chimp in office to say?
ygdrasl
August 3, 2005 at 10:12 pm
12Howcum creationists haven’t taken up string theory? I keep waiting for Tom Delay or some other man of the cloth to say “thou shalt confine thyself to 3 dimensions as the good Lord intended!”
Pete IVDL
August 4, 2005 at 12:48 am
13Ygdrasil - it’s only a theory. Nothing serious.
Guys, check out Chuckie Krauthammer’s essay in this month’s Time magazine (yes, usually I only lookit the pitchers, but I wanted to read tha wordz this time). I can’t believe that ConservaChuck has come up with such a cogent, reasoned, passionate argument against ID! It’s like… it’s like… it’s like… [slap] it’s like Satan telling us that corn syrup is fattening! Go Chuck!
Murray, the cat’s out of the bag now mate. Where did your glasses go? Are they still at the bottom of the bay??
cooper
August 4, 2005 at 8:10 am
14Ygdrasl,
No! no! There are only 2 dimensions!!! The earth is flat, remember??? Jesus Christ on a crutch, get it straight, will you?
Yours in Christ,
Tom Delay
Lynne
August 4, 2005 at 10:05 am
15Why did the Lobster create cockroaches? Or termites?
Isn’t that proof that it’s not intelligent design? Or is that I’m terrified when a big ole palmetto bug comes flying at me?
Bob
August 4, 2005 at 11:07 am
16Sorry for switching the subject, but holy smokes–I thought we had transitioned to waging a Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism, but according to today’s Times, the Prez insists that we’re still fighting a War on Terror.
For some reason, neither the White House nor the Pentagon has yet to embrace the Valiant Attempt to Pull Something Out of Our Ass. Maybe next week.
timfc
August 4, 2005 at 11:20 am
17Hi all… I’d really like to jump on the bandwagon and go right along saying that Adam’s analogy is the best thing since sliced milk and all, but I do math.
See, we understand un-decide-ability, but as long as we all agree to play by the same rules (which we know are either incomplete or contradictory, we chose incomplete for better working conditions) we can actually prove division works. That’s the beauty of math… We get to prove things work in all cases.
So, Mr. Felber, I emplore you to change your metaphor… Perhaps gravity? Knock that cup down and show me gravity works. Ok, well, what about that whale? You haven’t shown me it works on a whale… Ok, so it works on that one, but what about that one? Ok, then that other one,
Mary
August 4, 2005 at 11:59 am
18Actually, we might be able to posit a theory for Scientific Crustaceanism. At least a more cogent one than for Creationism or Intelligent Design.
Murray- it’s goblins, I tell you. Goblins!!! ;-D
Ken... Just Ken
August 4, 2005 at 1:02 pm
19I’ve just been informed of an alternative theory to the Great Lobster…
http://www.venganza.org/
This guy is petitioning the Kansas Board of education to include the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory in their educational curriculum.
He’s really done his work.
ice weasel
August 4, 2005 at 1:16 pm
20Ah Adam, here is where one opinion you espoused not long kind of comes back to nibble on your backside a bit.
That whole thing about not deriding the media, or something along those lines, here is where the media has let us down utterly and completely.
Most Americans get a lot of “knowledge” from the media. Be it television, radio or print, they take a lot of what they think they know from these sources. This, in some cases, supplants what they learned from arguably more reputable sources or, sadly, more likely true in most cases, is the only type of information they’ll ever have on a particular issue.
With the advent of “balance” in the media, we see, time and time again, two sides of an issues presented (as though most issues only have a pro and con, but that’s another rant) one side tends to be centrist, the other side tends to be from an extreme edge. This is “balance”.
This is one reason why it’s ok to argue ID against natural selection because it’s being balanced. It’s a debate.
I think the other thing the media needs to be held responsible for is how compliant they have been with the christian agenda in this country. Very, very seldom are even proven whackjobs shown to be such. At worst they are fundamentalists (oh, gasp, aren’t those terrorists fundamentalists too?!).
As for shrub’s vacation, to me it demonstates the incontrivertible fact that the American people have no sense of right and wrong anymore (wow, now there’s a nice generalization). The idea that this guy, having already taken as much time off as any president before, can take another 35 days right now, is ludicrous. Hell, an indignant secret service brigade should grab the boy-emperor by the arms and forcibly take back to the white house where he can sit with his head on his desk until he actually does something (other than repeat what unca karl says in his ear). But they don’t. Few people will even really speak out about it. bush will “clear some more brush” and have a god ol’ time down in his fake rancho and that’s that.
Meanwhile, most Americans are trying to figure out a way to take a vacation one week long, instead cashing it out (”we needed the money last year…”). That is, those Americans lucky enough to actually get a paid vacation.
Ok, I”m tired now.
Btw Adam, nice lobster.
Mike Z
August 4, 2005 at 1:17 pm
21timfc - To show these people your alleged “proof” that long division always works, you would need to sit them down and go through the whole thing point by point, after you had agreed to the rules of logic and justification within proper mathematics. They won’t do that, so I think Adam’s comparison works just fine. It brings out the precise problem with the debate.
It seems that right wing advocates use this strategy a lot. Remember the “debate” over global warming? Point out a few fringe dissenters and suddenly both sides have equal merit. The media often plays along, as with Fox’s farcial “we report, you decide” policy in which silly points of view are just as valid as the truth.
The goal, of course, is to undermine science because it so often shows that their preferred policies are faulty. The tragically funny part is that they always claim to be promoting “better science” or “better education” as they tear down good science and good education.
Bob
August 4, 2005 at 1:23 pm
22That Flying Spaghetti Monster guy makes a good case. And compared to Intelligent Design, the number-of-pirates-vs-global-warming theory seems pretty much bulletproof.
Rockstar
August 4, 2005 at 1:24 pm
23You are right. As long as science can’t “prove them wrong” they still consider it an open issue. Ridiculous…
madbard
August 4, 2005 at 1:46 pm
24sorry. i actually saw one at my university (UCSD) bookstore when they first came out but not swinging that way (NOT THAT THERE’S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT!) i didn’t get a copy.
alas, they hasn’t been a follow-up either.
Adam Felber
August 4, 2005 at 2:30 pm
25timfc -
I concede the point, but I’m not gonna change it. I’m aware of the difference between completely provable mathematics and somewhat less-provable scientific theory, but I thought the analogy worked better this way because of its simplicity.
What both have in common are agreed-upon methodologies for proving the validity of various assertions. Sure, mathematics can be “proven” without leaving any room whatsoever for logical objections, but if fundamentalists launched a serious challenge to long division, complete with a lot of quacks writing pseudo-mathematical papers objecting to the practice, I have no doubt that they’d be able to convince many, many people that it’s still an “open question.”
ice weasel - you’re right. This one IS partly the media’s fault. For me it doesn’t change what I said earlier, but it’s worth mentioning that science has really been let down on this one.
tim
August 4, 2005 at 3:37 pm
26The single most compelling argument against Intelligent Design is…the existence of these dim bulbs who believe in Intelligent Design.
Turd Blossom
August 4, 2005 at 5:09 pm
27Finally I understand what the whole “Thank Lobster” thing is all about!
nolo
August 4, 2005 at 5:23 pm
281. Shouldn’t the term for Scientific Crustaceanists be “lobstetricians?”
2. How does Scientific Crustaceanism account for the Medium Lobster?
waterfowler
August 4, 2005 at 5:59 pm
29Isn’t evolution still just a theory? I’m still waiting for my extra fingers, since I use a keyboard so often.
Pete IVDL
August 4, 2005 at 6:20 pm
30Tim, I’m with you - if there’s any real argument against ID, it’s the fools who propose it. (To paraphrase someone funnier and famouser than me, I would never join a group who’d have me. Oh, hang on a minute, that means…).
Can anyone in the Silent Lurking Multitude draw a lobster that doesn’t look like a ten-legged cat? With all due respect to Fanny (who happens to grace my favourite coffee mug), I would dearly love to see Adam’s crustacean creation in living colour. Plus, it could be used to disprove ID : if someone can depict the Ever Lovin’ Lobster, doesn’t that prove it must exist?
Allison in Santa Cruz (a biology geek)
August 4, 2005 at 8:50 pm
31Pete IVDL - Wouldn’t we all like to see the Great Lobster with our own eyes? But I imagine its face to be one of the great unknowables of the universe. And really, with all the ommatidia in those compound eyes, would you know where to look?
I still think the reason we nerdy science-types can’t debate effectively with IDiots is that you just can’t argue with religion. All the empirical evidence in the world doesn’t stack up against a person’s faith. People who might be perfectly reasonable about other topics tend to get very defensive when their faith is challenged. And ID is, after all, a matter of religious belief.
Rick Santorum was interviewed on Morning Edition this morning. He said a lot of things I disagreed with, but the one that got my goat was something about the randomness of evolution. I hate it that the creationists and IDiots, who inarguably know less about the subject than those of us who actually study evolution, get to define evolution and make blatantly false statements about evolution. And the majority of the scientifically-illiterate American populace are gonna go “Oh, okay” and accept the randomness of evolution. Which is so wrong it makes my teeth hurt.
I’m gonna take some Advil now.
Jim
August 4, 2005 at 9:09 pm
32Waterfowler,
Ya got a long wait, but maybe if you try typing with your vestigial unused appendix (which by the way is still usable in largely herbivorous vertebrates that have been such for generations), you may be able to speed up the process.
Just stay away from the Mueselex (sp? - I’m a omnivore), or it may go back to it’s original function in a few thousand years.
cooper
August 4, 2005 at 9:39 pm
33Obituary
Washington, DC - Dr. Richard Land, graduate of Princeton University (AB magna cum laude) and Oxford University (Dr Philosophy) and former President of the Southern Baptist Conventions Ethics & Religious Liberty Convention passed away today, 8/4/05, in Washington, DC. He had just completed a segment on the Diane Rhem Show in which he debated Alan Leshner of the American Association for the Advancement of Science on the topic of Intelligent Design. Listeners calling in after Dr. Land’s death was announced, uniformly opined that the good Doctor got his clock cleaned in the discussion, often relying on straw man tactics, classical debate subterfuge, “shucking and jiving”, downhome bald faced lies and the shouting, rock chucking and spitting techniques originally perfected by his ancesters back in the Appalachian hollers of West Virginia. Dr. Land died when, stepping out of Studio 3A of WAMU, his pants spontaneously burst into flames. Veteran radio news hound Joe Beats of WX12 Chicago, who was entering the building as Dr. Land flamed-on, was quoted as saying “Oh, the humanity!!!” and “Okay, who brought the wieners?”.
Funeral plans were incomplete at press time. Family members seemed at a loss as to how to prepare for the ceremony. “We always assumed he would just ascend into heaven. Now we’ve plant his sorry ass? What a bitch!”
Matt
August 4, 2005 at 9:43 pm
34Well, waterfowler, lots of people (and cats) are born with extra digits, but there’s no evolutionary advantage, so don’t count on it becoming mainstream (we tend to cut them off humans–maybe at the insistence of the Secret Cabal of Glove Manufacturers).
It’s controlled by an autosomal dominant mutation with incomplete penetrance (or God’s will–if you think like Rick Santorum).
hedera
August 4, 2005 at 11:26 pm
35Just so you’ll all know, the ID folks have (almost) publicly admitted the existence of the Lobster!
In today’s San Francisco Chronicle, Michael Behe (a “leading advocate” of ID) is quoted as saying, “Inferences to design do not require that we have a candidate for the role of designer.” The article goes on, According to its advocates, the designer responsible for intelligent design in biology could be any sort of “creative intelligence” capable of engineering the basic elements of life. Some, including Behe, have even seriously nominated advanced space aliens for the role.
See?? It is the Lobster! They even admit it!
On the same page, the Chron had an even better article by one Lisa Fullam, an assistant professor of moral theology at the Jesuit School of Theology in Berkeley (who is a former veterinarian; now there’s a resume!), arguing that if the Designer were as intelligent as He’s cracked up to be, things like human knees, and rabbit and horse intestines, would work better than they do. This was particularly significant to me because my knees are so bad…
Matt
August 5, 2005 at 12:26 am
36You know, Hedera, if the Lobster were truly merciful, he’d have some us born with extra knees instead of extra fingers . . . .
tess
August 5, 2005 at 12:35 am
37hedera,
My poor, gassy, mini Rex!
Allison,
I’d like to thank the grand tradition in this country of spouting off on topics with only passing familiarity in front of live audiences. It’s what gave us Jerry Springer, Geraldo Rivera, and now that grand tradition has spread to science as it relates to politics. Jackasses, unite!
cooper
August 5, 2005 at 6:46 am
38hedera,
Wait a minute. You have bad knees and you live in San Francisco? Shouldn’t you move to North Dakota or Kansas?
Mary
August 5, 2005 at 9:58 am
39Allison,
Yes, Santroum almost had a moment of reasonableness and then went back to being uninformed with his comments about evolution. We are not the “mistakes”, we are the products of adaptation/selection in nature. Except, in his case ;-D
Mark
August 5, 2005 at 11:58 am
40Hi Adam - Unfortunately, you have made a common error when “lay-people” discuss science… You don’t “try to prove” anything. I used to punch (gently) intro students for saying their “hypothesis was proven right” UGH!
The only reason this is an important point (to me anyway) is because it is the crux of the misunderstanding and the only entrée to any sort of “debate.”
Science doesn’t *prove* anything - it only refutes. The reason something as certain (and useful) as gravity is a theory is because all conditions have not and cannot be tested. It has yet to be disproved and, more importantly, the construct of the theory has provided countless, valuable tools for exploring and better understanding the world.
It may seem trivial to quibble about a term such as “prove,” but it is a highly significant concept to appreciate to really be doing science. And even when math is “proven,” it is qualified with “based on these agreed-upon conditions.”
If we could spend more time in the classroom helping students see the value in the process of science - the methodology of carefully, and critically investigating natural phenomena - we may find the need for such distractions as “Intelligent Design” less practical. The only place for Intelligent Design in a science class is students intelligently designing, controlled experimental procedures to collect useful data to better understand their world.
Sorry for the semantics.
Mark
Steve
August 5, 2005 at 2:42 pm
41I heard the Santorum interview on NPR yesterday (8/4/05) morning while shaving and almost cut my ear off when I heard the interviewer, Steve Inskeep, assert that there are some “scientists” who would say that there are virtually no “holes” in the theory of evolution.
Any scientist who said such a thing should be required to immediately hang up their lab coat and return their Ph.D forthwith.
It’s unlikely that the theory of evolution will ever be complete. It will continously evolve, if you will, as new information becomes available or old information is re-examined by new eyes.
Evolution is simply the best theory we have going today that fits the facts in a logically self-consistent manner using testable hypotheses. To state otherwise is to resort to dogmatism as execrable as any other.
As Mark said, above, we don’t prove things are right. We simply prove they aren’t wrong as far as we know.
And that’s what I like about science. There are no absolute answers.
madbard (yet another UCSC alum and biology geek)
August 5, 2005 at 2:58 pm
42herewith, i proclaim that no one knows what science is thus the entire enterprise is open to debate. anyone wearing a labcoat shall report to Bob Jones University IMMEDIATELY for reprogramming!
however we all know exactly what profit is so damn the torpedos and full speed for ANWR!!!
but seriously, most “science” defies “common sense” for “most people”, with “common sense” being what “most people” experience daily and “most people” being non-trained scientists. even us/those trained scientists can argue as to what is science.
the scales of size, force, numbers, and time–both infintesimally small and infinitely large–have little “common sense” meaning to “most people.” thus “most people” either ignore scientific pronouncements (except when Channel 2 News says there’s a new medical weight-loss treatment) or treat science as faith-based with pronounciations from the lab-coated high priests.
heck, having had 16 years of “religious training”, i’ve managed to ignore most of it.
does i have a point? NO, I HAVE NO POINTY BITS!
Murray
August 5, 2005 at 3:36 pm
43Of all the theories that humans have come up with, gravity, relativity, why women wad up dollar bills and stuff them into any available pocket/purse/fold of their cloths while men put all bills only in their wallets and then face up,,,oops, sorry, where was I? Oh yea, the one that has had the most effort to disprove is the theory of evolution. Second place doesn’t even come close. Yet for all of the effort to disprove evolution no one has put a dent in it.
The deal with evolution is that it so useful in every area of Biology. Think of bacteria. We don’t assume that every bacteria alive today was created by God, survived the flood only to still infect us now. (I don’t want that doctor to treat me). No, we assume that bacteria can adapt to changes like antibiotics. (Even mores so with viruses). You don’t have to be immersed in primordial soup to use the main theme of biology. Virtually every area can only be explained using evolution as the over arching structure of life.
Krugman in his NYTimes article points out that ID only needs to create doubt to succeed. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/05/opinion/05krugman.html
bri
August 5, 2005 at 3:41 pm
44I believe that Douglas Adams proves the non-existence of god in his books - “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy”
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/staff/magi/personal/humour/General_Audience/The% 20Babel%20Fish.html
Unfortunately this also does the same for the great lobster. Be gentle with me when you run me out of town on a rail.
Now I am down to just …Damit!
Damn!!
Adam Felber
August 5, 2005 at 4:47 pm
45Mark -
Quite right about “to prove.” In my defense, I used the word only once, in talking about the necessity of defining what is meant by “intelligent designer” before looking for evidence of its existence.
Oddly, you guys ensure that my satire is more carefully vetted for validity than most newspapers. I guess those are the breaks - geeks attract geeks, and this site is fated to be the most logically sound collection of cheap shots and poo jokes in the history of mankind.
I can’t say I’m unhappy about that.
Pete IVDL
August 5, 2005 at 4:51 pm
46POO JOKES? Are you SHITTIN’ us?
Allison ISC, I couldn’t agree more. Except the ‘ommatidia’ bit, which I had to ‘look up’ (pardon the pun). I learn something every day!
Even though the changes are purely random, the results either work (yay!) or they don’t (oh). But these dolts only see half the mechanism (maybe it’s the only half they understand? ‘Specially considering the skills they seem so inordinately proud of - trying to tear down a beautiful and amazingly descriptive theory and replacing it with something a 3-year-old would laugh at), and get even that confused. Talk about bass ackwards.
FSMists - I’m sorry, but there are more pirates today than there were 50 years ago. Although, ‘classical’ pirates (patch, pegleg, parrot, tricorn hat, terrible speech impediments) are on the decline, while ‘nouveau’ pirates (AK47, ninja bodysuits, Zodiac boats) are on the up and up. Perhaps the new pirates are desecrating the old pirates? or something? Isn’t it interesting that W hasn’t mentioned pirates in his War/Struggle On/Against Terror/Extremists? Maybe his speech writers can’t prevent him from ad-libbing ‘oooooh ARRRRR’ all the time…
Pete IVDL
August 5, 2005 at 4:54 pm
47Ahhhhh. THat’s better. I put some hash in my cash and now it works. Just like evolution. (The Amazing Jennifer: Seems that the web server caches some comments - even if the client has just refreshed, and if we try to post while the stuff is cached, we get hashcashed. Now, if that makes sense, so does evolution.)
madbard (yet another UCSC alum and biology geek)
August 5, 2005 at 7:47 pm
48the problem is you are bogarting! pass the hash.
Tom M
August 5, 2005 at 8:04 pm
49Well, I don’t know whether the universe is 12 billion years old, 5000 years old or 5 seconds old, but it sure looks 12 billion years old. Personally I just wish that the religious right in the US would stop getting their knickers in a twist about such trivialities as this, and actually get back to asking God what He wants them to worry about. I can guarantee that God has bigger things on His mind than whether or not children are taught 6 day creation. Of the entire Bible only 1 or 2 pages actually talk about creation, and the rest is about how everything went wrong and what God’s plan is to put it right. If God were really that worried about it, He would have given Moses GUT.
Allison in Santa Cruz (a biology geek)
August 5, 2005 at 10:48 pm
50Madbard — Any chance we know each other? I mean, how many UCSC bio geeks can there be at FA??
Pete IVDL — I don’t know where this whole mistaken notion that evolution is a random process came from, but unfortunately it does seem to be the one thing about evolution that people remember. Too bad it’s not true. And even the mutations that ultimately produce the genetic variation upon which natural selection acts don’t occur at random. Some parts of the genome mutate more frequently (i.e., are less conserved) while others mutate much less frequently (i.e., are more conserved). So, really, there isn’t anything about natural selection that can be called “random”.
Except perhaps the recombination events that occur during meiosis, and the fatalistic circumstance of which sperm fuses its DNA with which egg. But none of the ID folks is talking about that. At least, I don’t think so.
hedera
August 6, 2005 at 12:25 am
51Actually, cooper, I live in Oakland, I just read the San Francisco paper (have you ever seen the Oakland Tribune?). And no, I should not move to North Dakota or Kansas. I’ve been through Kansas, and South (close enough) Dakota, and saw nothing that inspired me to stay. Bad knees or not.
Murray
August 6, 2005 at 8:51 am
52Allison,
I bet that I’m not the only Michigan grad bio geek here at FA.
cooper
August 6, 2005 at 4:59 pm
53hedera, Oakland, of course! Who can afford SF, anyways? And yes, I’ve also seen Kansas, North Dakota, & South Dakota (which is topographically far more interesting than ND, the flatness of which even the eastern Montana wheat belt collectively casts aspertions upon). My concern was for your knees only. Be well.
Matt
August 6, 2005 at 5:27 pm
54You win, Murray: I was Chemistry & Cell/Molecular bio major in Ann Arbor.
hedera
August 6, 2005 at 5:41 pm
55I thank you, cooper, for the kind thought; but you know, if I let my bad knees stop me, I’d never do anything. And generally, I am well; same to you.
Jheqia
August 7, 2005 at 8:34 pm
56What people are really trying to prove, or disprove, is whether God exists. At no point will everyone agree on that point, no matter how greatly it would be desired by both parties. So is there any reason for either side cramming their religion/philosophy/ideology down the other’s throats? I belive in God, but I am ok with the Bible not being taught in schools. (That is the parent’s responsiblity, no one elses.) I also beleive that it should be emphasized that evolution is STILL a theory. No matter how many carbon dated bone fragments they have, no matter how many fancy names they come out with, or how old they say the earth is, they still can’t completely prove it. As for me, I beleive that science is the way that humans come to understand God’s creation. And personally, I would rather have the comfort of a loving God than cold hard numbers at the end of a hard day.
Pete IVDL
August 7, 2005 at 9:58 pm
57Allison ISC - see? I learn something every day! I didn’t know that some genomes have a big ‘Kick Me’ sign on their little atomic backs… I guess that randomnityness is a moot point - bottom line is, all the mutations that last long enough to influence the next generation of individuals have already proved they don’t immediately self-destruct the cell - they haven’t been voted out, so they stay for the Next Generation (yes, I’m a Trekkie in my spare time, so Pun Intended!
). In defense of my poorly reasoned argument (and so you’ll still comment to me - sob-), my genetic theory is at least 20 years old, and hasn’t evolved as it should. Shucks, I’ve still got a soft spot for Gregor Mendel. Plus I like sweet peas…
Jheqia, you’re right. This is the kind of argument that isn’t even an argument. No-one is gonna ‘win’. And as was discussed further up the page, no matter how well the data fits the theory, no matter how well the theory predicts future outcomes, no matter how nice the theory is, it’s still only a theory. All they need to do is find those darned flying puppies, and it’s all over, Red Rover. (I’m still waiting for my flying puppy, you know…)
Jim
August 8, 2005 at 3:29 pm
58Pete,
Be careful what you wish for. It’s bad enough trying to dodge pigeon stuff. I don’t want to have to start dodging doggie doo to boot.
cooper
August 8, 2005 at 8:43 pm
59Jheqia, my dear, sweet Irish Grandma Joyce used to tell me, “Child, every cripple’s got he’s own way o’ walkin’”. She would have a smirk on her face and would hold her gaze inordinately long and I remember thinking, as a six year old, “She’s not talking about me, is she?” In hindsight, I’m convinced she was.
My mid-life crisis has been rather tame by most standards. I’ve immersed myself in science again after 30 years of mortgages, marriage, child rearing, running a business, et al. These are good years for me and I’m really enjoying the catching up on the lastest in theories and discoveries. Here is what I believe - the universe is 14.7 billion years old and began with the Big Bang. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old. These figures are sound - the numbers crunch. Life on this planet evolved into what it is now, it was not created by a higher being or an “Intelligent Designer”.
The Bible tells us (I know because I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church and this was repeatedly pounded into me) that the Earth is approximately 6000 years old and that the Earth and all flora and fauna was created in 6 days and 6 nights. On the seventh day we would have sat around and smoked hash, but Pete was still bogarting it, so we rested. This account of creation and much of the Old Testament was supplied by Moses, a man who by any standard was a savage, ignorant man. If his first born’s life depended on it, he could not even begin to explain the water cycle and the mechanism of rain fall. And yet Christians just lap up his version of creation. This has always amazed me!!!
The example above is but one of many. To paraphrase Mark Twain, the Bible is filled with stories of war, peace, love and hate, begatting, treachery and upwards of a thousand lies. Believe what you will, Jheqia, but at least give it some critical thinking.
Your pal,
Adam Felber
August 9, 2005 at 4:22 pm
60Jhequia-
I respect your opinion, but can’t agree on a couple of points. Two deserve mentioning:
-This argument isn’t about “whether God exists.” It’s not even about whether the Judeo/Christian God exists. It’s about whether the Bible is accurate in its account of the world’s history. What’s important about this distinction is that many, many Jewish and Christian clergymen DO believe in evolution.
- You point out that “evolution is STILL a theory.” It’s science. It will always be theory. The study of science is the teaching of well-founded scientific methods, laws and theories. It seems to me that you’re “falling for” the standard line that some less-honest creationists use to object to evolution, if you’ll forgive me for saying so.
This rather unfair “theory” objection comes from a (sometimes willful) misunderstanding about what scientific theory is. Here’s a good explanation:
http://wilstar.com/theories.htm
If we stop teaching things that are theories, we’re going to have to stop teaching things like quantum theory and relativity. That’d suck.
Pete IVDL
August 9, 2005 at 6:23 pm
61I’m so glad some people (including the Adam) can refute arguments properly. I swear, the stuff’s in my head, it just gets interpreted wrongly through my fingers… In my defense, it’s really cold here today (they’re predicting the first snow here in 22 years… of course, they’re only predicting snow; we might all get suntans yet)
Jim - bugger! I haven’t thought through all the negative implications of levitating incontinent small furry mammals. All I can think of to say would be : INCOMING!
madbard (yet another UCSC alum and biology geek)
August 11, 2005 at 1:04 pm
62actually, when we scientists need adam to help defend us, we are in big trouble. are those torches and pitchforks i see at the entrance of the lab building?
AllisonISC: I’m Oakes c/o 92.
Earl
August 12, 2005 at 12:14 am
63The return of the lobster hits all the true points. It is not just Bush’s (and Kansas Board of Education’s) current idiocy that concerns me…it is the simple statements every politician who wants to be elected will be heard to utter at some point: “God Bless America!” Ask them what they mean by that. I have no clue…and I don’t think they do either. Why are statements like that so accepted as a stirring finale to an otherwise banal speech? Please ask them why they expect us to so completely accept such a humanoid deity that grants vaguely defined favors to selected groups of people.
The foisting of religion upon us all is rampant and often not noticed. Don’t let them win…….counter religious apathy with the beauty of natural history, of our knowledge of the world around us. The more they know the less moronic they will be (how’s that for a profound statement! hah!). Meanwhile I start the Davis, CA chapter of the chuch of Crustaceana (Reformed).
Mike Z
August 12, 2005 at 12:24 pm
64Adam and Jhequia -
Here’s two more of my cents: While’s Adam’s right about the science stuff, we also all know that the specific evolution vs. [insert alternative] “debate” is merely a symptom of a deeper issue.
The thing that’s scaring people about science is the claim that we now have viable scientific (i.e. naturalistic) explanations for everything that religion was supposed to explain. And this becomes a really big problem–one that can turn Christians into anti-science activists–when it comes to ethics.
Over-confident science writers like Richard Dawkins and E.O. Wilson claim that if darwinian evolution is correct, then humans are essentially purposeless animals. Therefore, any ethical codes based on religion are bunk. Unfortunately, many people believe this sloppy argument, and are afraid that it will lead (or, rather, IS leading) to the destruction of our society through moral decay.
What is not so often heard is that the arguments by Dawkins and Wilson actually really suck. While they may be good scientists and writers, they are lousy philosophers. I believe the theory of darwinian evolution to be approximately true. However, human culture and ethics are not based solely on biological evolution–behaviors are not 100% heritable. There is much more going on in the development of human behavior and morality than Dawkins and Wilson can really explain.
Of course, that doesn’t mean that ethics can only be found in religion. Ethical codes that everyone can agree on can be established through rational, non-religious methods as well.
Anyway, this all got way too long, but if the scientists would stop over-stating their case against religion, and if atheists can be allowed to explain their moral reasoning, then maybe the Christian activists will stop seeing evolution as such a huge threat to their way of life.
Allison in Santa Cruz (biology geek)
August 12, 2005 at 3:02 pm
65Madbard — You graduated from UCSC the year before I started graduate school there. Our paths likely didn’t cross.
Earl in Davis — Good luck with your local chapter of the Church of Crustaceana! I did my undergraduate work at UC Davis and think you shouldn’t have any problems building a congregation.
Mike — I think this seemingly uncrossable divide between religion and science could be breached if both sides started from the premise that the two are not mutually exclusive. And it’s not just a matter of “live and let live,” either. Religion and science were both invented by Homo sapiens to satisfy our desire to understand our place in the universe. It seems to me that a reasonably intelligent person would know better than to let religion encroach on science, and vice versa. Then again, what the hell am I thinking, expecting people to be reasonable??
madbard
August 16, 2005 at 5:46 pm
66AllisonISC: if you want to compare notes, drop me an email.
hedera
August 18, 2005 at 12:54 am
67Mike Z, Allison ISC, the trouble with your reasonable hypotheses is that you assume the people Mike refers to as “Christian activists” are reasonable people, that is, people who reason and accept the results of reasoning. I don’t think they are. I believe (having been raised Baptist, like cooper, although not the southern flavor) that they “think” with their emotions. The notion that God is on their side and that He created the world for their use is enormously comforting, and they don’t want to question it, because if they begin to question anything at all, they might come to conclusions that would make them very uncomfortable indeed - as Mike suggested - and they don’t want to be uncomfortable. And so they rave and rant at science, to keep themselves comfortable.
I’m reminded of a comment from Alexei Panshin’s Star Well, where one of the characters reflects that the most comfortable are the dead, and so he values his discomfort as proof that he is still alive - and in that sense he is a life-lacking man…
hedera
August 18, 2005 at 1:04 am
68Oops - momentary disconnect - not Star Well, but The Thurb Revolution, which is much the most interesting of the Anthony Villiers novels. Does anyone know if Panshin ever actually wrote The Universal Pantograph, which was supposed to be the last book in the series? I’ve never been able to find a reference to it.
nigel
August 25, 2005 at 11:08 pm
69There is a fairly effective one word rebuttal for “intelligent design”:
“Moose”.
In the flustered pause that follows, spring “tapeworm” on them. At least it might make them think about whether they’re being good Christians or not.