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	<title>Comments on: Nation Reconciles After Schiavo Autopsy</title>
	<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/</link>
	<description>America's favorite blog</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: David</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9345</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9345</guid>
					<description>In case you missed it, Michael Schiavo put a wonderful plaque on his wife's gravesite:

SCHIAVO
THERESA MARIE
BELOVED WIFE
BORN DECEMBER 3, 1963
DEPARTED THIS EARTH
FEBRUARY 25, 1990
AT PEACE MARCH 31, 2005
I KEPT MY PROMISE
Michael Schiavo is a truly classy gentleman.  Pity the same cannot be said of our governor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case you missed it, Michael Schiavo put a wonderful plaque on his wife&#8217;s gravesite:</p>
<p>SCHIAVO<br />
THERESA MARIE<br />
BELOVED WIFE<br />
BORN DECEMBER 3, 1963<br />
DEPARTED THIS EARTH<br />
FEBRUARY 25, 1990<br />
AT PEACE MARCH 31, 2005<br />
I KEPT MY PROMISE<br />
Michael Schiavo is a truly classy gentleman.  Pity the same cannot be said of our governor.
</p>
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		<title>by: Emmarie</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9295</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9295</guid>
					<description>That's strange and unhappy.  Much as I've given up on hearing anything really life-promoting from the Catholic church (as differentiated from Catholics themselves), I was kind of excited to hear that it does differentiate between "ordinary" and "extraordinary" means.  But I guess it was a lack of information about the latest developments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s strange and unhappy.  Much as I&#8217;ve given up on hearing anything really life-promoting from the Catholic church (as differentiated from Catholics themselves), I was kind of excited to hear that it does differentiate between &#8220;ordinary&#8221; and &#8220;extraordinary&#8221; means.  But I guess it was a lack of information about the latest developments.
</p>
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		<title>by: Lily</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9292</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9292</guid>
					<description>Emmarie,

The Church is currently trying to define exactly what "extraordinary means" means in this technological age. In fact, they recently held an international conference on the topic, and you can read more about that at http://www.vegetativestate.org/commenti.htm

However, the Vatican has been clear on the issue of withholding nutrition and hydration, quoting from the same website:

"Patients who are in a persistent vegetative state have a right to hydration and nutrition even though it must be provided through artificial means, said a leading Vatican bioethicist. Bishop Elio Sgreccia, vice president of the Pontifical Academy for Life, said that "with all these tubes in the veins, the nose and the stomach" too many people think of nutrition and hydration as a form of medical treatment.

"These interventions are simply care, which is obligatory to the moment of natural death," he said at a March 16 Vatican press conference."

However, as a former Catholic  with 16 years of Catholic education, I know that not everybody adheres to the doctrines. So one might get lucky and be in a Catholic hospice where the staff values death with dignity...but I sure wouldn't stake my life (or in this case, my death) on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emmarie,</p>
<p>The Church is currently trying to define exactly what &#8220;extraordinary means&#8221; means in this technological age. In fact, they recently held an international conference on the topic, and you can read more about that at <a href="http://www.vegetativestate.org/commenti.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.vegetativestate.org/commenti.htm</a></p>
<p>However, the Vatican has been clear on the issue of withholding nutrition and hydration, quoting from the same website:</p>
<p>&#8220;Patients who are in a persistent vegetative state have a right to hydration and nutrition even though it must be provided through artificial means, said a leading Vatican bioethicist. Bishop Elio Sgreccia, vice president of the Pontifical Academy for Life, said that &#8220;with all these tubes in the veins, the nose and the stomach&#8221; too many people think of nutrition and hydration as a form of medical treatment.</p>
<p>&#8220;These interventions are simply care, which is obligatory to the moment of natural death,&#8221; he said at a March 16 Vatican press conference.&#8221;</p>
<p>However, as a former Catholic  with 16 years of Catholic education, I know that not everybody adheres to the doctrines. So one might get lucky and be in a Catholic hospice where the staff values death with dignity&#8230;but I sure wouldn&#8217;t stake my life (or in this case, my death) on it.
</p>
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		<title>by: David</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9286</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9286</guid>
					<description>All I can say to this is Please never admit me to a Catholic hospital, which is worrisome, because the best hospital in Asheville is Catholic.  Luckily the best hospitals in Orlando are Seventh Day Adventist.  They provided, and had their personnel witness, my father's living will.  The regression of the Catholic church is at least as significant as the Southern Baptist decent into childish, but ruthless, fundamentalism, and no less an assault on personal liberty.  It's time to offend somebody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I can say to this is Please never admit me to a Catholic hospital, which is worrisome, because the best hospital in Asheville is Catholic.  Luckily the best hospitals in Orlando are Seventh Day Adventist.  They provided, and had their personnel witness, my father&#8217;s living will.  The regression of the Catholic church is at least as significant as the Southern Baptist decent into childish, but ruthless, fundamentalism, and no less an assault on personal liberty.  It&#8217;s time to offend somebody.
</p>
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		<title>by: Emmarie</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9283</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9283</guid>
					<description>Lily: I thought that life support in some instances would count as "extraordinary means" of keeping someone alive and therefore does not have to be administered under Catholic teaching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lily: I thought that life support in some instances would count as &#8220;extraordinary means&#8221; of keeping someone alive and therefore does not have to be administered under Catholic teaching.
</p>
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		<title>by: Lily</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9282</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9282</guid>
					<description>I suppose it also depends upon your insurance coverage: ie, how much they can soak you for.  I was recently offered the opportunity to increase my lifetime benefit from $1 million to $5 million by paying an additional premium out of pocket. No way...I figure if I ever need that much medical care, I'd rather be dead anyway, and I don't want  to give a hospital the incentive to keep my body alive!

BTW: did ya'll know that a Catholic hospital will not honor a legally executed Living Will if it violates Catholic teachings? IE, they will not take you off life support because the Church has made it quite clear this is, as they say, "euthanasia by omission." 

I thought this had to be an urban legend but the Schiavo affair prompted me to research the matter further, since 2 of the 3 local hospitals are Catholic so I could end up there in an emergency.

The "Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services" promulgated by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops states: 

"24. In compliance with federal law, a Catholic health
care institution will make available to patients
information about their rights, under the laws of
their state, to make an advance directive for their
medical treatment. The institution, however, will not
honor an advance directive that is contrary to
Catholic teaching. If the advance directive conflicts
with Catholic teaching, an explanation should be
provided as to why the directive cannot be honored."
http://www.nccbuscc.org

In other words: To continue sucking at the government teat, we will help you write a legally binding Living Will, but we will not honor it if it violates our teaching...even if you're not a Catholic.

If you check the websites of your local Catholic hospitals, usually in their Hospice or Pastoral Care section, you will see somewhere a statement that they adhere to the Directives...though in the case of my 2 local hospitals, the statement is in barely visible grey print at the bottom of the page.

And it doesn't pertain only end of life issues: my friend needed an ovarian cyst removed, so she asked the surgeon about doing a tubal ligation while she was, as she put it "unzipped." The surgeon said he wasn't allowed to perform a birth control procedure at the Catholic hospital, and since he didn't have privileges at the non-Catholic one, she'd need to seek out another surgeon! Which of course created a tussle with her insurance company when she tried to go "out of plan."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose it also depends upon your insurance coverage: ie, how much they can soak you for.  I was recently offered the opportunity to increase my lifetime benefit from $1 million to $5 million by paying an additional premium out of pocket. No way&#8230;I figure if I ever need that much medical care, I&#8217;d rather be dead anyway, and I don&#8217;t want  to give a hospital the incentive to keep my body alive!</p>
<p>BTW: did ya&#8217;ll know that a Catholic hospital will not honor a legally executed Living Will if it violates Catholic teachings? IE, they will not take you off life support because the Church has made it quite clear this is, as they say, &#8220;euthanasia by omission.&#8221; </p>
<p>I thought this had to be an urban legend but the Schiavo affair prompted me to research the matter further, since 2 of the 3 local hospitals are Catholic so I could end up there in an emergency.</p>
<p>The &#8220;Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services&#8221; promulgated by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops states: </p>
<p>&#8220;24. In compliance with federal law, a Catholic health<br />
care institution will make available to patients<br />
information about their rights, under the laws of<br />
their state, to make an advance directive for their<br />
medical treatment. The institution, however, will not<br />
honor an advance directive that is contrary to<br />
Catholic teaching. If the advance directive conflicts<br />
with Catholic teaching, an explanation should be<br />
provided as to why the directive cannot be honored.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.nccbuscc.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.nccbuscc.org</a></p>
<p>In other words: To continue sucking at the government teat, we will help you write a legally binding Living Will, but we will not honor it if it violates our teaching&#8230;even if you&#8217;re not a Catholic.</p>
<p>If you check the websites of your local Catholic hospitals, usually in their Hospice or Pastoral Care section, you will see somewhere a statement that they adhere to the Directives&#8230;though in the case of my 2 local hospitals, the statement is in barely visible grey print at the bottom of the page.</p>
<p>And it doesn&#8217;t pertain only end of life issues: my friend needed an ovarian cyst removed, so she asked the surgeon about doing a tubal ligation while she was, as she put it &#8220;unzipped.&#8221; The surgeon said he wasn&#8217;t allowed to perform a birth control procedure at the Catholic hospital, and since he didn&#8217;t have privileges at the non-Catholic one, she&#8217;d need to seek out another surgeon! Which of course created a tussle with her insurance company when she tried to go &#8220;out of plan.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: Murray</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9280</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9280</guid>
					<description>It's clear enough.

If you are dying because you can't afford health care, that's your problem. You can't expect the public to foot your bill.

If you are already dead but your body is being kept warm by machines, it's only right that the public pay (for ever). We believe in the sanctity of life.

Got that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s clear enough.</p>
<p>If you are dying because you can&#8217;t afford health care, that&#8217;s your problem. You can&#8217;t expect the public to foot your bill.</p>
<p>If you are already dead but your body is being kept warm by machines, it&#8217;s only right that the public pay (for ever). We believe in the sanctity of life.</p>
<p>Got that?
</p>
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		<title>by: David</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9278</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9278</guid>
					<description>Ken...Just Ken,

Big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.  Frist's father founded the Hospital Corporation of America. Your bottom insures their bottom line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken&#8230;Just Ken,</p>
<p>Big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.  Frist&#8217;s father founded the Hospital Corporation of America. Your bottom insures their bottom line.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ken...  Just Ken</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9263</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2005 06:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9263</guid>
					<description>Lily, 

Unfortunately it's been estimated in past studies that up to 40% of all medical expenses are for the last year of life.

It's hard to say, but we (as westerners) need to learn how to die and how to let our loved ones die with dignity.

We, in Oregon, keep passing the right to die law and the Federal government keeps trying to knock it down.  I don't understand what they have to gain by doing that.

I hope that someday we'll learn how to take care of the people who need it and find some way to ease the pain of the people who won't survive. 

And learn how to tell the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lily, </p>
<p>Unfortunately it&#8217;s been estimated in past studies that up to 40% of all medical expenses are for the last year of life.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to say, but we (as westerners) need to learn how to die and how to let our loved ones die with dignity.</p>
<p>We, in Oregon, keep passing the right to die law and the Federal government keeps trying to knock it down.  I don&#8217;t understand what they have to gain by doing that.</p>
<p>I hope that someday we&#8217;ll learn how to take care of the people who need it and find some way to ease the pain of the people who won&#8217;t survive. </p>
<p>And learn how to tell the difference.
</p>
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		<title>by: Lily</title>
		<link>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9257</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fanaticalapathy.com/2005/06/15/nation-reconciles-after-schiavo-autopsy/#comment-9257</guid>
					<description>Not to be mercenary, but throughout this long ordeal I kept wondering who pays to keep the braindead bodies alive...and at what cost to others?  I mean, every day I see collection jars on counters at the grocery store or gas station with some pathetic little kid's face who needs medical treatment, or posters announcing bake sales to help somebody get an organ transplant. 

Seems like you'd have to sell one hell of a lot of brownies to get a new kidney, doesn't it? How many of these people end up dying because they can't afford medical treatment? Meanwhile, some poor soul with no hope of recovery is kept alive artificially!

And more importantly, if "right to lifers" can become so obessessed about the "rights" of one braindead woman, why aren't they just a passionately on the frontlines of the battle for universal health care coverage? Is it because allowing people to die for lack of health care coverage is not such an overt act as pulling a plug, and they therefore do not grasp the  fact that in a country as wealthy as ours, this is corporate murder by neglect?

For that matter, if Jeb has so gosh much spare time that he can be stalking Michael Schiavo, why isn't he leading the fight for health care coverage in his own state? I suppose that allowing people to die for lack of health care is merely "letting God work in His mysterious way."

Jeb is such an idiot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to be mercenary, but throughout this long ordeal I kept wondering who pays to keep the braindead bodies alive&#8230;and at what cost to others?  I mean, every day I see collection jars on counters at the grocery store or gas station with some pathetic little kid&#8217;s face who needs medical treatment, or posters announcing bake sales to help somebody get an organ transplant. </p>
<p>Seems like you&#8217;d have to sell one hell of a lot of brownies to get a new kidney, doesn&#8217;t it? How many of these people end up dying because they can&#8217;t afford medical treatment? Meanwhile, some poor soul with no hope of recovery is kept alive artificially!</p>
<p>And more importantly, if &#8220;right to lifers&#8221; can become so obessessed about the &#8220;rights&#8221; of one braindead woman, why aren&#8217;t they just a passionately on the frontlines of the battle for universal health care coverage? Is it because allowing people to die for lack of health care coverage is not such an overt act as pulling a plug, and they therefore do not grasp the  fact that in a country as wealthy as ours, this is corporate murder by neglect?</p>
<p>For that matter, if Jeb has so gosh much spare time that he can be stalking Michael Schiavo, why isn&#8217;t he leading the fight for health care coverage in his own state? I suppose that allowing people to die for lack of health care is merely &#8220;letting God work in His mysterious way.&#8221;</p>
<p>Jeb is such an idiot.
</p>
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