From CNN:
TOPEKA, Kansas (Reuters) — Evolution is going on trial in Kansas.
Eighty years after a famed courtroom battle in Tennessee pitted religious beliefs about the origins of life against the theories of British scientist Charles Darwin, Kansas is holding its own hearings on what school children should be taught about how life on Earth began.
The Kansas Board of Education has scheduled six days of courtroom-style hearings to begin Thursday in Topeka. More than two dozen witnesses will give testimony and be subject to cross-examination, with the majority expected to argue against teaching evolution…
“I feel like I’m in a time warp here,” said Topeka attorney Pedro Irigonegaray who has agreed to defend evolution as valid science. “To debate evolution is similar to debating whether the Earth is round. It is an absurd proposition.”
Irigonegaray’s opponent will be attorney John Calvert, managing director of the Intelligent Design Network, a Kansas organization that argues the Earth was created through intentional design rather than random organism evolution…
“We’re not against evolution,” said Calvert. “But there is a lot of evidence that suggests that life is the product of intelligence. I think it is inappropriate for the state to prejudge the question whether we are the product of design or just an occurrence.”
I rarely have “insights.” They’re time-consuming, for one thing. They can’t stand on their own, either - once you have one, it’s useless until you persuade a bunch of people that it’s right. This takes even more time, and while you’re explaining yourself you are left vulnerable to quips and jabs by people who aren’t burdened by insight. People like me.
So if this morning I happened to have an insight that explained the exact philosophical nexus between the Christian Right, the neo-cons, and the rank-and-file of the anti-judge movement… the wisest course of action would be to ignore it until it went away.
But I’ve got a free hour before a messenger arrives with my next bundle of Exciting Television Work, so I’ll share:
It all comes down to “proving a negative.” Logically speaking, you can’t. As I’ve noted before, if I asserted that the universe was created by a gigantic, multidimensional lobster, you wouldn’t be able to prove me wrong. Even if you produced a handsomely-bound billion-year-old tome entitled “How I Did It, by God Himself” which featured a dust-jacket photo of the bearded, white-haired Deity in a contemplative pose and several flattering blurbs from other celestial beings (like “This guy really did it - Vishnu,” and “Makes me wish I’d written it - a real page-turner! - Lucifer”), even then I could ask you to prove that this “God” fella wasn’t Himself created by a gigantic multidimensional lobster, and we’d be back to square one.
That’s why science, logic, and our judicial system are engineered so that you never have to prove a negative. And that’s the philosophical and rhetorical widget that the religious and secular camps of conservative America have united behind. I think it was best summed up by noted philosopher Donald Rumsfeld, on the subject of Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction:
“The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
That’s true, of course, but only because “evidence of absence” is a logical impossibility when it comes to the existence of god or WMD’s in Iraq or deep thoughts going on inside of Terri Schiavo’s head or celestial crustaceans. That’s why real-world pursuits have built-in protections like Occam’s Razor and justice’s axiomatic “innocent until proven guilty.”
Remove those, and you get… well, look around.
The Intelligent Design game, which we’re about to see played out in that Kansas courtroom, works something like this: An I.D. guy points at some part of a plant or animal and says, “Whoa! Look at that thing! That’s really amazingly complicated! Where in the fossil record or in your tales of ‘evolution’ is there anything that shows that this incredibly complex thing could’ve come about by ‘natural selection?’ Huh? Where?”
If a fossil is subsequently discovered or a suitable explanation is provided, the minds behind Intelligent Design then say, “Okay, so how about this thing over here, then? Look at this! Now this is truly a mind-bogglingly complicated thingie right over here, isn’t it? Where in the fossil records or…”
The above might seem like an oversimplification. I kind of wish that it was.
So who are the guardians of the simple principle that you can’t keep a ball in the air indefinitely unless there’s a table underneath it? I can think of three. The scientific community, the media, and the judiciary.
What do those three institutions have in common? I’ll give you a hint: It rhymes with “shmarget of the gronservative poovement.”
The world’s an imperfect place, as anyone who’s ever carried a ballpoint pen in their pocket can tell you. Real-world systems are always open-ended and incomplete. In fact, the fact that this is a fact is a mathematically provable fact. It took a few thousand years to overcome this, plug up the holes, and build a society that could use words like “truth” and “justice” and really feel like they knew what they were talking about. It’s only taking a decade or two to tear it down, and the only tool it seems to require is the liberal use of the word “liberal.”
Somewhere on a hillside of such unimaginable size that it is dotted with “dandelions” that are in fact galaxies, stands a gargantuan, omnipotent lobster. The light of a billion suns sparkles off his benevolent thorax, and his cosmic antennae receive the information from a trillion worlds at speeds that make “light” look like the crosstown local. He is looking at us right now, and if you were to look closely you’d see that a single tear is currently dropping from one all-loving eyestalk.
Prove that it’s not.





86 comments
Skerlnik
May 2, 2005 at 6:18 pm
1You’ll never be able to explain evolution to fundamentalists, because their brains have never experienced it personally.
Kansas, it’s time to party like it’s 1399…
arnotsmith
May 2, 2005 at 6:25 pm
2What is there to debate?
I don’t see any conflict between the theory of evolution and the concept of an Intelligent Designer - that was a smart evolution process He dreamed up.
OTOH, once we get off the planet and before the Big Bang, I do have difficulty with the definition of Intelligence with respect to a Designer.
On the third hand, I guess that is what you were saying much more eloquently, just above.
Thanks,
P.
Jim
May 2, 2005 at 6:33 pm
3The spirit of Douglas Adams is alive and well in your theory of ILD (Intelligent Lobster Designer).
Of course, Douglas Adams vision of the absurd was fiction. We on the other hand are being forced to live through factual absurdities. Thank Lobster for common sense through comedy.
AM
May 2, 2005 at 6:43 pm
4Evolution is not a smart process, it is a really, really brutally dumb one. That’s the point. No infinitely benevolent being would sanction it. Which is why earlier religions that see the world as a duality or the product of a warring inbred family make a bit more sense.
AM
May 2, 2005 at 6:51 pm
5I can’t wait to see what the ID folks make of the Hitchhiker’s trilogy. They won’t like the designer (a brilliant but flawed Boeing-like team), the beings who commissioned it (manifest as hyperintelligent mice), the ignominy of its destruction in the name of “progress”. They’ll really be PO’d when they find out the trilogy is FIVE books and those Horrible Liberals in the movie business are going to rake them throught the coals of irony for years to come.
AM
May 2, 2005 at 7:13 pm
6The irony is that SOCIAL Darwinism is AOK: in fact Adam Smith is right up there with Moses. If we have such objections to a blind, oftimes brutal evolutionary reality, why do we trust our markets so uncritically to a dumb process? ‘Cause it works, despite being about as pretty as sausage making.
rod
May 2, 2005 at 7:28 pm
7I believe the lobster you have in mind is, in fact, the Medium Lobster.
And there’s some guy named Giblets out here threatening to smite you.
Murray
May 2, 2005 at 8:07 pm
8The problem with arguing with fundamentalists is that logic is a concept they will never embrace.
They believe in a god (an awesome god) who has ALL of the power in the universe AND beyond who needs to be defended like a 1 month old child from the terrible intentions of those evil scientists (many of whom are Christian - but the wrong kind-).
They have “a lot of evidence of ID” while ignoring all of the evidence that refutes ID.
What intelligent designer would give us a neck where food and air go down the same passage way, and is so fragile that very little is needed to break it? I don’t claim to be God but I have no trouble designing a better neck system, and a better eye, ear, nose, brain,… Opps that would eliminate the need to believe in a god who designed everything. Don’t need no better brain. Actually MUCH less brain power is required for intelligent design.
When faith, which by definition is what you believe in ABSENCE of evidence, collides with science which can be believed only THROUGH EVIDENCE, faith wins every time. After all God is waiting to welcome those heroic defenders who beat down those really bad and hurtful scientists, to eternal glory.
Halleluiah!
Bob
May 2, 2005 at 8:18 pm
9The problem, Adam, is that your lobster theory is crazy, but not crazy enough to be true.
Now, if the lobster were wearing wingtips…
Deno the Untergeek
May 2, 2005 at 9:43 pm
10I shake my head in disbelief. I remember reading Inherit the Wind and thinking, man, am I glad I’m not from Tenessee…What a primitive society, to condem a man for teaching evolution.
What is this, the return to the Dark Ages?
I think the main idea the Right has here is to keep people stupid. Seriously. They will never forgive us for the Enlightenment. Their desire to return to power (and I know they say something about “saving our souls” - no, it’s about power over the masses) is manifesting itself in Dubya’s mandate, in the return to a theocracy te likes of which has never been seen. Imagine Evangelicals with tactical nuclear (sorry, nukular) weapons…
Lobster help us all.
Pete in Van Diemen's Land
May 2, 2005 at 9:56 pm
11It was all going so well until someone started Capitalizing Truth, Faith, Spirit, etc.
Anyway, I thought we’d sorted out the IDiots in an earlier blog? What’s that? They didn’t Listen? Huh?
All I can say to IDers is “Hooptiously drangle me with crinkly Bindlewurdles, else I will rend thee in the Gobberwarts with my Blurgecruncheon, see if I don’t!”
I reckon the Lobster is crying because of embarassed laughter. Kind of like watching little kids try and figure out how a television works…
Pete in Van Diemen's Land
May 2, 2005 at 9:58 pm
12sorry, that should have been “blurglecruncheon”. Everyone knows that a “blurgecruncheon” won’t rend anyone in the gobberwarts. It’s nice with sliced seafood, though.
Mojo
May 2, 2005 at 9:59 pm
13At least now that whole “don’t eat shellfish” thing finally makes sense.
David
May 2, 2005 at 10:24 pm
14A White Sports Coat and a Pink Crustacean…
and the Enlightenment on the rack, as a “debate” where there is none takes center court in Kansas.
I suspect Lobster’s tear could be a tear of rage as It ponders how the human mind, the apotheosis of sentience, can go so godawfully awry, or as Lobster is probably muttering, “Boy, did I f**k up.”
hedera
May 2, 2005 at 11:45 pm
15You’re very clever, young man, but it’s no use - it’s turtles all the way down!”
AllanB
May 3, 2005 at 12:14 am
16Has anyone else noticed that the proponents of ID are careful to never say that the designer is God? I can think of only one explanation: the designer is in fact Satan and those pushing Intelligent Design are Satanists doing Satan’s work.
Pass it on…
Redshift
May 3, 2005 at 12:42 am
17Personally, I believe in the theory of Unintelligent Design.
Allison in Santa Cruz
May 3, 2005 at 12:48 am
18Lobster help us, must we live through this lunacy all over again?
Tom M
May 3, 2005 at 5:14 am
19I really wish I understood the motivation of the ID proponants, but I don’t. If anything science gives a picture of a MORE powerful and omnipotent creator (if such a thing were a logical possibility). Any God/lobster who uses random evolution and still makes no mistakes, has got to be better that one that goes “whoops, those creatures need to see and I’d forgotten about that. I’d better invent an eye”.
Personally, if I were God, I think I would have left my signature on creation somewhere though. Perhaps in letters a few atoms high on a grain of sand on a beach on an island in the middle of the Pacific ocean.
Rusty
May 3, 2005 at 8:08 am
20I’ve said it before. Rational discourse won’t defeat these people. Emotion and perceived association will. There’s only one good way to fight this. The Church of the Lobster must be incorporated and throw its full weight into the fight to SUPPORT ID and creationism.
We need a creed and a liturgy. Some temporally stagnant, cultural mores converted into incontrovertible laws to be imposed universally on all other cultures as superior would be nice, too.
Heck, Hubbard turned really bad science fiction into a religion. Surely, a really good blog could create, dare I say “intelligently design”, a decent religion.
Mark
May 3, 2005 at 8:10 am
21Hi
The real problem here (and the main issue for ID proponents) is that this is all intended to guide our national science curriculum. Who cares who believes what… it’s that they propose we teach - sanction - such thoughts. Children will go to church and hear the nice, powerful priest talk about the glories of the Almighty and how you’d better believe or you’re in eternal trouble, then go to school and learn that such concepts are supported by ’science.’
It is a goldmine for indoctrinators. The pursuit of scientific inquiry and understanding the real workings of the world don’t stand a chance. The good news is that if everyone learns to believe the same truth — word for word — standardized testing becomes a much more accurate measure of ability.
Personally, I have a visceral, emotional response to this entire discourse — I get so angry at the way the name of Science is taken in vain that I end up yelling and pulling out my hair. I’ll just stop instead…..
Adam, you need to get on a TV forum or something so everyone can hear more of the voice of reason. Perhaps you can persuade an “E vs. ID” episode of WWDTM (though I suspect most listeners of that show get it already, too — preaching to the choir, so to speak.)
Murray
May 3, 2005 at 8:22 am
22IDers use the “Intelligent Designer” instead of God, as a not very subtle subterfuge around the charge of introducing God into the school curriculum. (Their eyes and elbows go almost spastic from all of the wink, wink, nudge, nudging they are doing).
Despite how adamant they are that it is not God, try suggesting that the intelligent designer is “The Law of Natural Selection”. How can you get more intelligent than a system that weeds out mistakes, builds on success, and fits everything in together?
timfc
May 3, 2005 at 9:03 am
23Adam,
Just a thought here, but you’ve basically said: you can’t prove a negative and then cited Godel’s incompleteness proof as part of your justification.
Mathematicians go about proving negatives all the time (working within their appropriate, and incomplete systems).
That is, Godel, and those who came afterward essentially said: you can never create a system which is both complete and not contradictory. That seems like a negative…
Perhaps some slight restructuring of your argument:
You cannot find evidence for a negative?
Mary
May 3, 2005 at 9:28 am
24timfc- while math and science are incestuously related, bringing both up will only confuse those who understand neither. Want to make the ID proponents nuts, talk about theory, hypothesis and proof. They won’t know which way to go.
herea- of course it is turtles all the way down! The Great Lobster designed it that way
rhorsman
May 3, 2005 at 9:45 am
25“Has anyone else noticed that the proponents of ID are careful to never say that the designer is God?”
Though in Darwin’s Black Box ID enthusiast/biochemist Michael Behe is very careful to say “and it wasn’t hyper intelligent aliens or multiple intelligent designers either.” So while he never actually says that The One True God did it, he’s very careful to make sure that that is the only conclusion a reader who agrees with him will draw.
Joe
May 3, 2005 at 9:56 am
26The key to deciding if a theory is valid is in determining its explanatory power. In what way does a pan-dimensional lobster-creator explain the universe better than existing theories? Does it add unnecessary (improvable) complications without extra explanatory power?
Even though a theory can’t be actually disproven doesn’t mean that one can’t provide a value judgment. The key to that value judgment is answering the two questions above.
ID and Evolution don’t have the same implications, and ID is pretty much disprovable with simple fact and inquisition (why would an intelligent designer make extinct species?). The problem is that since ID is not a rigid scientific theory, and its implications can be changed for each counter example. One must ask oneself, then, how does ID explain anything?
Secondly, ID does introduce new, un-disprovable complexities that also offer no additional explanation or physical implication. This phenomenon can be basically described as ‘I made it up.’
The good thing for everyone is that there as a prevailing theory (genomic evolution) which already passed these tests against other, previously prevailing theories. That means that ID will eventually lose on these grounds.
Comparing theories on this basis can be fun. Try it at parties!
Jason
May 3, 2005 at 10:27 am
27I’m quite happy knowing I grew up in a Darwin-friendly school. But if I were FORCED to grow up in a community that uses religion and faith to explain and justify science…I’m definately choosing Islam. At least then I’ll die knowing there will be a bunch of hot sexy virgins waiting for me.
Let’s see your so-called “Lobster” do that!
Tom M
May 3, 2005 at 11:00 am
28Joe, answering an ID fanatic by saying “Why would a designer do X? It just doesn’t make sense!” will get you nowhere, and is as easily refuted as “Are you the Intelligent Designer? No? Then who are you to judge what does and does not make sense over all time?”
Just to be clear, I’m not arguing for ID here, but it can’t be easily refuted. If ID COULD be easily refuted then it might be a science, but as it is, ID makes no claims that can be tested and therein lies the problem.
Ken... Just Ken
May 3, 2005 at 11:19 am
29The new Dark Age has truly begun in America.
We need to (as my girlfriend says) start double wrapping our books in plastic and burying them in the back yard so that we can preserve that knowledge for the future.
How can we stop them from ending the age of enightenment?
Mike Z
May 3, 2005 at 2:44 pm
30Here are some interesting references:
For a discussion of ID (and other stuff) by full-blown philosophers of science, check out this blog:
http://philbio.typepad.com/philosophy_of_biology/
For a formailzed version of the points made here by Murray, Rusty, and others, check out this great essay by a philosophy professor:
http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/irrationality.htm
The thesis of the essay is that people (on all sides) tend to be intentionally irrational about politics because it helps them to maintain a sense of group membership. All other explanations for these kinds of political disagreements are systematically refuted.
adam
May 3, 2005 at 2:46 pm
31timfc -
Good point. Let me explain where I was going (this will bore just about everyone else):
“Proving a negative” is a well-worn cliche, obviously, but it generally doesn’t refer to all logical negatives (as in “prove not x”). It usually means, in formal terms, “disproving a statement for which there is an absence of evidence in the first place.”
That’s a lot less elegant and readable, so I went with “proving a negative.”
For instance, when it comes to the existence of God or a guilty verdict in a murder trial, the burden of proof is - by the laws of logic and law, respectively - squarely on the shoulders of those who want to prove those things. In logic, you can’t tell me that “God exists” and then ask me to disprove the statement without formally defining “God” in a series of logical propositions. Similarly, you can’t start with “Adam killed Hank,” offer no evidence, and require me to prove that I DIDN’T.
God, Intelligent Design, hidden WMD’s, and (to a degree) Terri Schiavo’s conscious thoughts are all squarely in the category of propositions that various elements of the Right have not only asserted but have done so without evidence while cagily trying to shift the burden of proof. Because of the lack of evidence they supply, they are unprovable. So asking someone to prove they AREN’T true (i.e. - proving the negative), is strictly out of bounds from a logical standpoint.
Still, they all COULD be true. A totally unproven and (possibly) unprovable statement is not in itself logically false. Thus we’ve built things like Occam’s Razor and and the presumption of innocence into our real-world systems. This SHOULD help us deal with odd statements like “There is an Intelligent Designer who made the universe,” and “Saddam had weapons that we don’t know about” and “Adam killed Hank.” If you want these things to be true, our systems say, you have to prove ‘em.
The Godel reference is a bit…. for lack of a better word, er, artistic. Godel said that for any system of logical thought there is always a true statement that cannot be proven within the terms of that system (is that a fair paraphrasing?). Even the best systems are logically incomplete, the “real world” more so than most. More than one person has tried to pass God off as the world’s “Godel statement,” the unprovable thing that may nevertheless be true…
All right, I’ll stop. I’m boring myself.
And Hank was asking for it, anyway.
Auros
May 3, 2005 at 4:33 pm
32I’ve encountered people who invoked Gödel as a defense of faith.
The thing is, they miss the point that just because something MAY be true-and-unprovable, that doesn’t justify them believing it without proof.
We all assume that inductive logic functions — that evidence from the past can be applied to future predictions. This assumption prevents us from becoming raving lunatics — we go to sleep at night safe in the assumption that the sun will come up tomorrow, that gravity will not cease to function such that we are flung off into space, and that our breakfast cereal will not spontaneously transmute into poisonous snakes in the box.
The word for somebody who does not make this assumption is “solipsist”. If you ever meet somebody who claims to be one, ask him to drive towards a brick wall at a speed proportional to his disbelief in its objective reality.
Given that we all — even people of faith — accept the first postulate that there is an observable, logical reality, it is the height of folly to then start making exceptions, and trying to assert claims for which you know you can’t prove.
tess
May 3, 2005 at 5:09 pm
33Veering off topic:
I’ve noticed that in the past week during my 3-hour-a-night sleep pattern and endless projects and work that I am highly prone to suggestion and even ID and trickle-down economics look like valid theories. I think that might help explain a number of things — namely this IS, as someone has mentioned, an emotional issue, and for a lot of people who seem to be missing a few neurons short of a complete cerebral cortex the logic is too much for them and they fall back on what they “feel” is true rather than what can be argued as true.
Of course, when I’m sleep deprived, I’ve also noticed that the part of my brain that tells me not to do things because it’s socially unacceptable pretty much gets turned off — I’ve been telling a lot of people lately that they’re stupid fuckers. That explains a few other things, except I’m too tired to think of it.
Hot Russian Slut
May 3, 2005 at 6:46 pm
34I’m reading “The Blind Watchmaker” by Richard Dawkins right now. It’s a refutation of ID, to say the least.
I don’t have anything to contribute to the discussion, but I just wanted you all to know that I’m reading a book.
zentoaster
May 3, 2005 at 7:28 pm
35Auros, you suggested that a solipsist be asked to drive into a brick wall at a speed proportionate to his or her disbelief in an objective reality. I was amused by your imagery, but I disagree with your metaphor. Someone who disbelieves in an objective reality is still allowed to fear the consequences of certain actions. When your solipsist sees over a period of time some large number of people get badly hurt by crashing into brick walls, he or she might think, “It would be just my luck that in order to prove the non-existence of objective reality, I would get killed. Forget it, I’m living on to tell the tales of subjective reality.” That refusal to drive into the wall does not provide evidence for the existence of objective reality. In the world of science itself, I have not heard of any proof of objective reality. But science seems nearly perfect for revealing likelihoods and probabilities. Also, I always thought that a solipsist was someone who believes the entire universe is a personal mental projection, and that nobody exists but the solipsist. I think that a solipsist may have to believe in a subjective universe, but someone who disbelieves in an objective universe need not necessarily be a solipsist. He or she might just be simple folk wondering what in the hell is going on around here. Then again, I might be nitpicking with all this, and I might, too, be altogether wrong.
Pete in Van Diemen's Land
May 3, 2005 at 7:29 pm
36Maybe ID proponents should start shaving with Occam’s razor.
Tom M - there is apparently a copy of Slartibartfast’s signiature embedded in the fjords of Norway. I think it’s only supposed to be in version 2.0 of the earth but you never know.
To paraphrase (again) from Mr. D. Adams : There are those who believe that if someone does figure out the meaning of the universe, it will disappear in an instant to be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There are some who believe this has already happened…
I think I’m one of them.
Pete in Van Diemen's Land
May 3, 2005 at 7:41 pm
37ooh, ooh, I just hear the word of the day : “morology”. It’s the study of morons! Just like what we do!
That’s all for now. - Dr Pete, Nobel-nominated Perfessor of Morology, Uni. of VDL, Ph. C, ROFL
wjb
May 3, 2005 at 9:00 pm
38I believe in G-D exists, and that the existence of Love, and the usefulness of the “Golden Rule” is proof.
I worked next to a fundamentalist Christian for several years. His attitude drove me NUTS — until one day it occurred to me that anyone who is that “protective” of G-D must not have a very high opinion of the deity.
Also, if you want to drive a fundamentalist nuts, ask him (or her) how he knows “The Rapture” hasn’t ALREADY happened!!
Allison in Santa Cruz
May 3, 2005 at 11:37 pm
39WJB - Wouldn’t a fundamentalist simply reply that he knows the Rapture hasn’t occurred because he hasn’t yet been lifted to heaven with all the other true believers?
hedera
May 3, 2005 at 11:57 pm
40Allison is right, if the fundamentalist were capable of doubt, he wouldn’t believe in the Rapture in any case…
Tom M
May 4, 2005 at 4:04 am
41Pete in VDL, doesn’t a belief that the universe may have a meaning at all imply a belief in the existance of a creator?
Furthermore, I don’t think Occam’s razor can be used in the context of divinity, because to an omnipotent creator all solutions are equally simple.
Zentoaster, I think you’re right about solipsists. Just because they believe reality to be subjective and a creation of their own mind, it doesn’t mean they have mastered control of their subjective realities. Wikipedia has some good stuff on solipsists.
Rhiannon
May 4, 2005 at 8:26 am
42All the evidence I needed to know that evolution was entirely plausable was found in dogs. We’ve been breeding and interbreeding and creating different kinds of dogs for centuries for all sorts of purposes. Whether or not there was a giant lobster organizing the whole “human breeding project” I don’t know, but that too is something to consider.
Murray
May 4, 2005 at 10:56 am
43The problem is proof.
Neither evolution, or a six day creation, or a sort of evolution by some sort of intelligent creator can be proven. Any one of these COULD be correct, although the evidence is overwhelmingly in the favor of the first. The point is that you can’t know, any more than you could know if you are going to win the lottery. That’s the problem with proving a negative. Every thing is possible, but there is much that is just not probable. Most of life is this way. I can’t prove that you won’t win the Nobel Prize in physics next year. It’s possible, just not probable. I can’t prove that death rays from mars won’t annihilate you in the next two minutes. It’s possible, just not probable.
Creationalists and IDers don’t mind believing in what is not probable and are checking their mailboxes everyday wondering when Ed Mc Mahn will deliver their Nobel Prize, while putting tin foil under their caps to deflect those death rays.
Jerry
May 4, 2005 at 1:41 pm
44OK, I’m probably just rehashing stuff I’ve said here before, but we seem to be confronting ignorant bullshit again, and, as Pete IVDL has noted, Bush is collaberative in our rush back to the fucking Dark Ages.
Intelligent Design? Then why do we have a fallible heart instead of a neat system of general peristolsis to circulate our blood? Why do we have the knee instead of a good joint that works in an upright stance? Why do we get hemorrhoids because our blood column pushes down too hard (which it doesn’t in our four-legged and knuckle-walking ancestors?) This is the best God could come up with? C’mon!!
Sure, to the thinking human, there is no conflict with a Designer with a lovely sense of humor and an elegant creation process through 3 billion years of evolution. But that is not what these folks want. In their hubris, they want a bearded old potter who spit in some dirt and molded us and blew in our mouths. They think they can understand a mind that created the Universe, and stands outside of time and space. And they whine at “him,” and ask for favors they could never pay back, ask “him” to change his whole plan to suit their convenience.
And they seek to impose this narrow, selfish, perception on everyone, exactly like the Catholic Church, which they loathe, imposed it’s world-view on Europe for centuries and used it to destroy one of the most enlightened civilizations of the day in the Middle East.
They don’t even understand their own religion, or what they regard as ‘their’ God, or what he expects of us…they keep trying to find a way out of the injuctions of Jesus! Miserable rat-fuckers.
Jerry
May 4, 2005 at 1:48 pm
45…and, of course, if elegant systems require a designer, who made the watchmaker?
Jerry
May 4, 2005 at 1:56 pm
46Hallelujah, where’s the Tylenol. Sorry…guess I just woke up pissed this morning. (Pete, that’s angry, not drunk.*grin*)
Thompson
May 4, 2005 at 2:08 pm
47Jerry, if you keep defaming rats like that, Fanny’s just gonna keep eating your posts in retaliation…
Mr_Blog
May 4, 2005 at 3:01 pm
48“Caught in the act of evolution”
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apscience_story.asp?category=15 01&slug=Dinosaur%20Diet
Transitional fossil! (”Okay, so how about this thing over here…”)
Mike Z
May 4, 2005 at 3:12 pm
49One interesting aspect of the political battles (especially the “teaching evolution” battle) that I’ve noticed is that one side is assuming this is a philosophical argument, while the other assumes this is all a legal argument.
Debaters in a philosophical argument try to find the truth, while those in a legal argument try only to win. In legal (criminal) battles, as long as you sow reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors, then you win–truth does not enter into the equation at all.
So, I would hesitate to just call the ID proponents stupid (which is probably a counter-productive strategy anyway). Instead, I think they’re simply engaged in a different debate format than those who are interested in truth (despite their frequent use of the word “truth”).
Jerry
May 4, 2005 at 3:12 pm
50I wasn’t defaming them, merely pointing our the terrible things these folks would do to noble rats! Yeah, that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it!
Jerry
May 4, 2005 at 3:21 pm
51Mr_Blog - that is the sad heart of this whole brouhaha. It simply doesn’t matter how much evidence from geology, paleontology, genetics, comparative anatomy, and a dozen other fields you bring to the table, all converging to a single line of reasoning. These people want us back in the dark ages, teaching kids that the Bible is the truth. Even if they can’t get through the first two chapters of Genesis and tell you whether God made trees or women first.
Murray
May 4, 2005 at 4:49 pm
52When ever I get into a creationalist debate, I ask if they think that their computers are the work of scientific engineering both soft and hardware or just witchcraft? I truly doubt that there is a single person who knows both the inner workings of both the chips and the internal codes of XP. It is beyond the comprehension of a single person and getting more complex all the time. Yet they are willing to except the science. I merely point out that the same science that made the computer also came up with evolution. You cannot pick and choose which parts of science you accept and which conflict with your God. Evolution relies on chemistry, anthropology, paleontology, biology, mathematics, physics, and most of the other sciences.
It’s either science or it’s witchcraft. Can their god make a computer? (or a digital watch for that matter)
Steve
May 4, 2005 at 5:07 pm
53Magnificent piece.
I hope I get to tell you this in person at the WWDTM taping tomorrow evening.
Please say you’ll be there, Adam. Please?
Anyone but PJ O’Rourke.
Mike Z
May 4, 2005 at 5:09 pm
54Murray - exactly right. Here’s another formulation: Suppose god exists. Either It created the universe via the big bang, evolution, etc., or It created the universe in six days and included all sorts of amazingly clever traps in order to fool our (god-given) intellect into thinking that science really works.
If they don’t want the first option, then they have to accept that god is an infinite prankster, constantly controlling all the laws of nature and every scientific experiment in order to fool us. Then, if we’re fooled, we’re automatically scheduled for eternal damnation. What an asshole.
Pete in Van Diemen's Land
May 4, 2005 at 5:53 pm
55Jerry, you’re spot on. Sir David Attenborough once said, in response to a question on whether he believed in a just and compassionate G0d (since he’d seen so much of G0d’s apparent “handiwork” at close range for so long), that he had a great problem with the concept of a just and compassionate anthropomorphic G0d who created all the pretty things (flowers, coral, birds, landscapes); but his worst memory was of the numbers of children in Africa who went blind because of a small worm that burrowed into their eyes.
You can’t just point to the purty stuff that a creator “made” as proof of a higher mind : the creator must also be entirely responsible for the crap as well, and that’s not easy to balance, nor does it appear in most ID/fundie arguments for such a “being”. Perhaps the creator slipped up when it created so many bacteria that change so quickly that they can adapt to new antibiotic drugs. Either the creator slipped up (d’oh! Those pesky Staphylococcus aurelii!), or it deliberately creates organisms that adapt to and attack innocent folks (heh, heh, heh,)
Either way, I have a MUCH easier time believing in a pan-dimensional crustacean than a one-dimensional “designer”. Where’s my medication?
Auros
May 4, 2005 at 9:20 pm
56Zenotaster: It is of course obvious that one cannot use logic to prove itself — this is part of the Godelian dilemma. If logic is wrong, then no amount of repeatable experimentation will suffice to prove that the next time you drop the lead weight, it won’t decide to fly off into space.
However, the reluctance you refer to — the observation that, gosh, every time somebody hits a wall at 50 mph, they get smooshed like a bug — is logic in action. It’s a concession that one’s past observations of the world have predictive value. And, like I said, once you accept that concept, there is no logical justification for making exceptions.
Murray
May 4, 2005 at 10:02 pm
57Mike Z,
My final argument with a creationalist asks, if God created the world in 6 days only 6,000 years ago why did he make all of the evidence say a 13.8 billion year old universe and 4 billion year old earth. How do you explain the light from the Andromeda Galaxy that took 2 million years to get here? What about ice layers in Greenland that go back, year by year, for 250,000 years. Why would God create a world 6000 years ago and make it look 4 billion years old.
My only explanation is that God is getting a big laugh out of it. So millions of clues say 4 billion years and only the most dedicated Christians know the truth.
I call this the Cosmic Joke Theory of Creation.
David
May 5, 2005 at 11:29 am
58So the Merry Pranksters really were on a Mission from God? Or is it the other way around?
Stacy lavin
May 5, 2005 at 12:05 pm
59Liberal Caution
With all the neo-con stuff in the air these days, it seems like folly for people who profess liberal sentiments to hold their breath. Many left-leaning political activists criticize their fellow, if less ‘active’ liberals for allowing conservatist ideology to reinstate itself in government, in schools, in the above-mentioned ‘ether’ of ‘these days.’
I think that the author of this post has done an excellent job rhetorically kicking the ID folks’ waste of judicial resources in the proverbial ass. But I would argue that, for many of us liberals who don’t have the rhetorical and/or intellectual stamina to convert the image of a giant lobster into an ass-kicking symbol of conservatism’s present absurdity, there is a damn good reason to be cautious in expounding on the absurdity of expressed conservative ideology (e.g. the Kansas trial). The fact that I had to qualify “political activists” with “liberal” should explain why; the neo-cons or whatever you call the groups that are strategizing to take back the realms of dominant knowledge (in universities…anybody know what’s gone down at Columbia recently?, the press, courts of law etc…) are wittingly playing victims and stigmatizing one after another of the social institutions and values that have been developed to “plug up the holes” in our imperfect world so that other words like “truth” and “justice” can exists. I’m talking about values like intellectual rigor, academic freedom, political correctness (not so much a value as an idea that used to be accused of fostering mediocrity and now is accused of erasing difference –used properly, I think political correctness is an essential tool for progressive society).
The point of my ramblings? liberalism is associated with academic freedom and inclusivity. But liberals need to be wary of walking into the role of ‘victimizer’ of the neo-con’s ‘victim.’ I don’t care what Fred Jameson says about postmodern pastiche; irony can strike at any moment.
All I mean to say is, let’s make sure we pick our battles and anticipate what the oponent’s strategy is.
It may be important to emphasize here that I’m not reacting to anything written in the above postings; I am simply contributing my thoughts to the venue which helped sparked them. (yay free speech!)
Mike Z
May 5, 2005 at 2:25 pm
60Interesting Update:
The two primary academic sources cited in the anti-evolution statement to the Kansas BOE are Kenneth Miller (prof. of Biology, Brown Univ.) and Carol Cleland (prof. of Philosophy, Univ. of CO, Boulder).
http://www.kansasscience2005.com/Proposed%20Revision%20to%20Draft%202% 20KS%20Sci%20Stds.pdf
see, especially, pp.10-11
Both of these authors specifically argue against creationism, ID, etc. in their academic work, and both are vehemently opposed to ID being taught in any K-12 science classes. Also, both have submitted their official protests and rebuttals to the Kansas BOE (after they found out that their work was being twisted to the ID-ers aims).
Jerry
May 5, 2005 at 3:46 pm
61Stacy lavin - Wow! Two very important paragraphs!
‘Nuff said.
David
May 5, 2005 at 7:03 pm
62Point well taken that we need not to come off as victimizers. Earnest Angley has made a career out of the “victimization” of the fundies. His big thing for a couple of decades now has been “Christians under attack,” a theme amplified by his televangelist fellow travelers. And now it’s the “victimized” conservative college students. Yeah, we do need to pay attention to their strategies, and essentially outsmart them.
But as Carl Hiassen said in a recent interview (on 60 Minutes?), politicians are unaffected by logical arguments or facts. They are affected by humiliation. So on that front, effective satire is a must, especially since we can neither out-fundraise them nor directly out-poll them at the moment.
I think the correct strategy in Kansas will be for the attorney representing knowledge and rational analysis to come off as calm and reasonable. Vocal qualities will be very important, as will be his appearance. Someone with Ossie Davis’s speaking skills would be nice.
The other thing, of course, is that said attorney can make absolutely no mistakes or phrase anything in any way he (it is a guy in this case, isn’t it?) could later regret.
Meanwhile, here’s hoping a really good comic take-off on Jon Stewart’s show is in the works, especially since politicians of all stripes want to make it onto his show. That’s a venue on which these bozos can and should be humiliated in a playful way.
And go Adam, of course. The more neo-medieval nuts you can put in a vise, the better.
Pete in Van Diemen's Land
May 5, 2005 at 8:59 pm
63Unfortunately you’re right, David. When presentation outweighs content, something is seriously wrong somewhere. But that’s exactly what the Wolfowitzes and Schiavonistas et. al. rely on: they don’t have a real, valid argument, but golly, aren’t they passionate about whatever it is they’re arguing.
Stacy, you were illuminatingly right. (And I’m so glad you’re using your powers for Good, not Evil. Lobster bless you!)
hedera
May 6, 2005 at 12:40 am
64on the Scopes trial. WJBU is in Dayton, Tenn. where Scopes was tried. This guy - whose name I will omit but it’s in the article - has an undergrad degree in geology from U.Chicago; a PhD from Harvard where he studied with Stephen J. Gould; and he believes that God created the world 6,000 years ago, and the Grand Canyon was sculpted by water in about 3 weeks, a few hundred years after Noah’s flood.
How can he have that education, and have come to those conclusions? He’s written a book to say, no matter what you think you see, if it doesn’t match the Christian perspective, it’s not true. Does anybody else find that terrifying??
Mike Z
May 6, 2005 at 3:18 am
65Hedera -
Well, I guess at least one university will be ok with admitting Kansas high school graduates.
Jerry
May 6, 2005 at 3:20 am
66Gould must have been spinning even before he was in his grave. Astounding.
Murray
May 6, 2005 at 8:31 am
67Just think of the ethics professor who had W. in his class. (Or Chaney)
tim
May 6, 2005 at 10:14 am
68Late to the game, and Adam has clarified the “proving a negative” thing, but if you are reading these comments in June or July 2005, then check out the following article (not mine):
Hales, “You Can Prove a Negative,” Think (Summer, 2005)
Thompson
May 6, 2005 at 10:21 am
69Heh. When I think of politicians and ethics courses, I inevitably remember the idea of the Gentleman’s ‘C.’
Jerry
May 6, 2005 at 1:13 pm
70The “Gentleman’s ‘C’” Is that how the Yellow Rose come out of Yale with a ‘C’ average?
Pete in Van Diemen's Land
May 6, 2005 at 5:56 pm
71hedera - the answer’s right there. He wants to sell a book. Period.
He’s got himself a minor degree, which demonstrates only that he showed up for classes, heard what he needed to hear, displayed what his teachers needed to hear, and now he skips down the path to notoriety.
I’m sure it’s more complicated than that, but I prefer to think not. As someone without any kind of college degree, but with rooms full of eclectic books, I envy that bloke his chance to learn geology, and I’m flabbergasted with what he’s done with the opportunity.
I don’t want to write a book. I just want to understand everything based on whatever reasoning I can bring to bear, weight of evidence, and common sense (with the obvious exception of quantum electrodynamics, which to me sometimes reads like infinitely recursive religion).
Like everyone, I would like to know the answers; unlike the fundies/wierdos, I don’t believe I have them. The day I do get the answers is the day I pop my clogs, and that’s fine with me. I can wait!
Rog
May 6, 2005 at 10:44 pm
72You wrote:
> The world’s an imperfect place, as anyone who’s ever carried a
> ballpoint pen in their pocket can tell you. Real-world systems are
> always open-ended….
There’s your solution right there: ALWAYS make sure the ballpoint pen
in your pocket is NOT open-ended!
hedera
May 7, 2005 at 12:09 am
73Pete IVDL: Actually, I always assumed that getting a PhD from Harvard is a little more complicated than showing up for class and parroting the right answers - if it really isn’t, how in Lobster’s name do they get away with charging all that money for tuition? And I’m with you - the hell with degrees (although I do have 2), I just want to learn how it all works. I’m afraid you’re right about the book sales though.
Murray, Thompson, what made you think that either W or Cheney ever went anywhere near an ethics course? They weren’t mandatory.
And yeah, Jerry, I remember during the 2000 campaign hearing things about the Yellow Rose’s “gentleman’s C” at Yale and wondering why anyone would think that a man who brags about only just getting by would have any qualifications for the post of President of the Newnited States? And as we’ve now all seen, he DIDN’T have any…
hedera
May 7, 2005 at 12:12 pm
74Pete IVDL: Quantum electrodynamics almost makes sense if you remember two things: you can’t measure something without changing it, and you can know where something is or how fast it’s moving, but not both.
Jerry
May 7, 2005 at 12:23 pm
75Not to quibble, hedera, but you are refering to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, not QED. *QED* is another of those elegant, tested (perhaps most tested of all theories, according to some scientists) “theories” that the Fundies would hate if they came even close to understanding. It describes the properties of electromagnetic radiation (light, etc.) and its interaction with electrically charged matter in the framework of quantum theory and special relativity. QED deals with processes involving the creation of elementary particles from electromagnetic energy, and with the reverse processes in which a particle and its antiparticle annihilate each other and produce energy.
And while we’re on the subject of “theories”: one of the things I hate about the whole “Evolution Debate” is how the Fundies have jumped on the wholly responsible, “we might be wrong, but this works every time we try it” use of the the term ‘theory’ in science. The knowledable ones know what it means, and the ignorant ones haven’t the foggiest (though it doesn’t take much to learn this), but should be enlightened by the ones who know, who are, by their failure to do so, irresponsible hypocrits. The constant harping on “Evolution is just a “theory”,” as if that meant “wild guess, and no more reliable than a belief in creation 6,000 years ago” is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.
Jerry
May 7, 2005 at 12:27 pm
76Oh, and the HUP applies only to sub-atomic particles. Thank Lobster we can tell both where a car is, and it’s direction and speed! 8^)
Pete in Van Diemen's Land
May 7, 2005 at 5:03 pm
77Jerry - isn’t it a pity CERN can’t get a fundieparticle and an antifundieparticle to annihilate each other? I know these mutually exclusive particles exist, but they seem to be governed by the Pauli principle: they get close enough to see the other point of view, but can’t accept it. Maybe someone needs to come up with a Theory of Special Relationships… Hey, what if we hit all fundies with a planck? (hee hee - that’s my first ever physics joke.
hedera, you’re right about the measuring and the looking and the changing things. I’m teaching myself about probability math so I can figure out where Feynman’s bullets are REALLY going! Boy, no-one ever explained that knowing <> understanding. It’s still fun, though!
Jerry
May 7, 2005 at 5:37 pm
78Lordy, no, Pete…we’d lose one anti-Fundie for every Fundie annihilated! But hitting them with a Planke, constantly, sounds good.
But the pity (save us from ourselves, I beseech thee, Lobster) is that the Superconducting Super Collider being built in Waxahachie, Texas was cancelled after it was 1/4 complete. Not just wild-eyed pure science was hurt by this decision, but so were the Regional Medical Technology Center which would have used the facility to combat cancer and the High Performance Computing Center which would have used it to advance their work in massively parallel computing, including work in climatology, among others. Also lost was the chance to be a world center in particle physics.
Arrggghhhhhhhh!!!! But they did save 6 billion dollars after having already expended 2 billion dollars on the facility. Washington, DC, thy name is wisdom.
adam
May 7, 2005 at 10:09 pm
79As an aside, Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle (and misunderstanding it) figures prominently in my forthcoming novel.
Then again, there’s also a militiaman on the run, a rat, a singularly large molecule, and plenty of sex and drinking.
It’s my site, dammit, and I’ll self-promote if I wanna!
David
May 8, 2005 at 1:14 am
80Adam, Adam, it’s our site by right of homestead, at least the posts are. Your only roles are as chief instigator and tireless slave to all the shit you have to go through to keep this lighthouse in the descending blackness of the New Dark Ages lit.
On the fundies and sparing the anti-fundies, couldn’t we just find a way to Bohr the bastards with Niels? I’m thinking with subatomic augers. OK, OK, an auger is larger than a gimlet, but the Auger effect involves “the excitation of electrons within an atom initiated by the absorption of energy, as from cosmic rays, and accompanied by the emission of an electron.” Nocturnal electron emissions would seal the deal.
Pete in Van Diemen's Land
May 8, 2005 at 5:38 pm
81Adam - don’t self-promote too heavily - RSI (repetitive self-promotion injury) can be really hard to treat. I dunno, between Thompson castigating and you self-promoting, the Lobster must be scratching its carapace in bemusement.
I really don’t know how you find time to breathe and sleep, dude. But I’m right in the market for a novel incorporating misunderstanding Heisenberg, militiamen, rats, large molecules, and those… other… things.
David, David, David. You have way too much time on your hands. (I liked the NEE,though!)
Jerry, I’ve got a suspicion that a fundie/antifundie collision results in a massive release of energy as pure noise, but neither particle is affected - the energy comes from uncommitted Bystander particles. We’ll have to get someone to investigate. I see a couple of trebuchets, courtesy of Mythbusters, some struggling bound fundies, and a large concrete ‘antifundamental’ wall target… Of course, if it were fundies investigating this interaction, they’d use a calorimeter and just BURN THE BASTARDS!
In any case, there are far fewer fundieparticles than researchers assume - it’s just that, since the fundieparticles are over-energised bosons, they have an overwhelming need to interact with everything! (I can’t carry this analogy further without giving my limited physics knowledge a possibly fatal hernia).
David
May 9, 2005 at 1:17 am
82Pot in Van Diemen’s Land,
You callin’ Kettle in Magic Kingdom Land black?
Ain’t enough hours in the day for the things the mind enjoys.
Steve Byan
May 9, 2005 at 8:32 pm
83So the Medium Lobster (fafblog.blogspot.com) does have Budda nature!
Marcus
May 17, 2005 at 12:42 pm
84Not that it makes a difference for the arguing, but Godel is valid regarding the naturals; 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. It’s a proof directed squarely at Russel and Whithead. You can most certainly have both sound and complete inference systems. First-order logic has natural deduction, to mention one. It’s solid and can handle what you throw at it.
Anyway, this bears little relevance to the text, which is brilliant as always when you write it Adam.
Peter McGrath
October 24, 2005 at 10:14 am
85Well, the injuction against eating shellfish now makes a lot of sense. The bit about paralytic shellfish poisoning in 1st year marine biology did it for me. Back here in old England, we think we may have found the wreck of the Beagle in a marsh in the delightfully named Paglesham, Essex. And we’re making plans to build a replica of the Beagle to be launched on 12 February 2009, the Darwin’s 200th anniversary.
Turnkey business
January 8, 2006 at 1:30 pm
86Has anyone else noticed that the proponents of ID are careful to never say that the designer is God? I can think of only one explanation: the designer is in fact Satan and those pushing Intelligent Design are Satanists doing Satan’s work.